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Suzuki TL 1000 idle / running problem.

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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 17:47 - 13 Oct 2017    Post subject: Suzuki TL 1000 idle / running problem. Reply with quote

Hi all.
Hope there is someone on here with a bit of knowledge.
It began running very rough below 3K rpm, OK above.
Did the throttle body balance dance, air screws correct at 1.5 turns out. Set up diagnostic mode to check TPS. It read correct, middle bar until revs rise above 1.4K rpm.
With all as should be by the book, its incredibly rich and stutters and farts. Advance the TPS so the bar is on the higher mark, all sweetness and light, good throttle response, engine running clean.
Checked TPS for electrical continuity, all measures as per the book.
Inclined to settle for running right rather than going by the book.
Anyone have any ideas?

Cheers.
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jaffa90
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PostPosted: 01:26 - 14 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

its incredibly rich and stutters and farts.????
Also "engine running clean".
How did you find this out? More info please.
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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 07:56 - 14 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not difficult to diagnose. With TPS set on middle bar, the exhaust smokes with a heavy smell of fuel, had to switch off and get out of the workshop it was so bad. The idle stumbles, engine missing. Advance the TPS a few notches, bar now at top position, engine runs clean, little or no stumble through the rev range. Road test proves the difficult sub 3K RPM range much smoother, slow filtering speeds much more comfortable.
I appreciate that this is not right, by the book, but is right by engine performance.
Given that these engines / electronics seem to be notorious for poor low speed running, I'm inclined to go by my seat of the pants.
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jaffa90
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PostPosted: 20:34 - 14 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info, my gsx1400 low mileage started coughing at low revs and now up to 2,500rpm but as normal above.
On cold start idle it`s normal but uneven slightly when warmed up a bit.
I`ve changed fuel station but no difference.
It going to a dealer job to find what signals the sensors are giving to the brain, also the downpipes are different temps as in different fuel mixtures when warming up.
Sorry cannot help with modern fuel injection electronics.
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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 23:52 - 14 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

As no-one seems brave enough to answer, I'll put this to bed.
TL / SV engine is a stonker, quiet and well engineered when compared to all the other V's out there. But it's useless in the real world, the fueling is absolutely appalling, and its not just me saying that, the forums are a full of similar posts to mine.
It does seem to me that motorcycle FI in its simplest form, as fitted to the early adopters, is crude. Later editions with duel flow nozzles and secondary butterflies do seem to be better, but, bye bye simplicity.
A big capacity V twin is difficult at best to fuel, I've washed my hands of this and told the guy to get shut..... or fit VTR carbs, they seem to work just fine!
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Fisty
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PostPosted: 18:30 - 15 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjdugen wrote:
As no-one seems brave enough to answer, I'll put this to bed.
TL / SV engine is a stonker, quiet and well engineered when compared to all the other V's out there. But it's useless in the real world, the fueling is absolutely appalling, and its not just me saying that, the forums are a full of similar posts to mine.
It does seem to me that motorcycle FI in its simplest form, as fitted to the early adopters, is crude. Later editions with duel flow nozzles and secondary butterflies do seem to be better, but, bye bye simplicity.
A big capacity V twin is difficult at best to fuel, I've washed my hands of this and told the guy to get shut..... or fit VTR carbs, they seem to work just fine!


Wow.....

The fuelling can be a pain to set up but once its done correctly by someone who knows what they are doing they run perfectly.
You dont mention if the bike is standard or not.

Buy a power commander and have it set up or get the ECU flashed with a Yoshi box. The latter can be done with trial and error at home but is best set up on a dyno.
A smart TRE can sort out the low fueling but doesnt always work.
Did you check to see if the bike was stuck in the cold map?
Telling someone to get shot of a bike because you don't have the capabilities or the knowledge to sort it is a bit of a cuntish thing to do.
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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 19:22 - 15 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi
I think you answered the question. In a nutshell, buy all sorts of expensive add-ons, take the expensive add-ons to an expensive dyno shop then. maybe, it might just run as well as a carbed bike does.
Its not that I am inexperienced, although I distrust FI intensely, its that repair seems to involve throwing money at various sensors, TPS's TRE's, and general second guessing the heath of an EPROM. No doubt someone with intimate knowledge of this system could reach a satisfactory diagnosis, but, once they start going wrong, the costs of repair start to become eye watering.
He has the options you suggest, I have already made them. He is still left with a machine not worth much more than 1.5K after launching the best part of £500 upwards at it. Basic economics would suggest..... Get shut!
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Fisty
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PostPosted: 19:31 - 15 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjdugen wrote:
Hi
I think you answered the question. In a nutshell, buy all sorts of expensive add-ons, take the expensive add-ons to an expensive dyno shop then. maybe, it might just run as well as a carbed bike does.
Its not that I am inexperienced, although I distrust FI intensely, its that repair seems to involve throwing money at various sensors, TPS's TRE's, and general second guessing the heath of an EPROM. No doubt someone with intimate knowledge of this system could reach a satisfactory diagnosis, but, once they start going wrong, the costs of repair start to become eye watering.
He has the options you suggest, I have already made them. He is still left with a machine not worth much more than 1.5K after launching the best part of £500 upwards at it. Basic economics would suggest..... Get shut!


Set up with a yoshi box and dyno time £200.

Source. Me. Had it done to a mates TL less than 4 weeks ago.

And there is no throwing money at the various sensors, you can test each one individually to see if they are working correctly. Find the one at fault and replace it.

You say yourself you mistrust FI bikes. It's because you don't understand the TL or how to fix it's niggles. Having owned an R for now 8 years and setting up the fuelling myself several times and working on and sorting the fuelling on seveal S models I can safely say none has cost more than £200 to sort unless in the quest for more power.

I stand by my statement that telling someone to sell a bike because you are incapable is a cunts trick.
If your mate fancies a trip to Bristol I wil happily sort it for him. For free.
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Last edited by Fisty on 19:43 - 15 Oct 2017; edited 2 times in total
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P.
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PostPosted: 19:33 - 15 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed. I'm a spastic and Pete had a look at my TL. Got it running absolutely bang on.

You clearly just need to learn more Smile
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 19:58 - 15 Oct 2017    Post subject: Re: Suzuki TL 1000 idle / running problem. Reply with quote

jjdugen wrote:
With all as should be by the book, its incredibly rich and stutters and farts. Advance the TPS so the bar is on the higher mark, all sweetness and light, good throttle response, engine running clean.

So you've fixed it then!
I seem to recall something on R1-forum.com about the TPS output voltage spec on the first FI R1 (2002-2003, famously good FI, check out this month's Performance Bikes magazine) being unreliable due to changes made in manufacturing. I guess what's important is the change in voltage ratio rather than the actual volts, but it does nullify the service manual spec when trouble-shooting.
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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 20:15 - 15 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Must put a few caveats in here. The actual machine belongs to my notoriously tight fisted mate and is a Cagiva Raptor, but, essentially, all the electronics are Suzuki, or a damn good reproduction. This is my basic problem, have Cagiva done something different, or, have Suzuki neutered the engine in some way.
He is also prone to the protective owner syndrome. I only realised how bad the thing was when I took it for its MOT. The horrific juddering and lurching up to 4k rpm, compounded bu the back pipe junction blowing like a bastard and the front discs having an interesting warp in them. I really had to sweet talk my inspector into letting me off with advisories on the strict understanding they would be rectified. They have, he wept at the price of the discs but was adamant that it ran 'OK' just needed to use the clutch a bit when it got 'jerky'. He was quite offended when I told him it was a bag of shite!
Bristol is a fair old way from Manchester, Fisty, but thanks for the offer. It might help if you could post some pointers.
Standard pipes, etc, no fault codes, new plugs, checked all vacuum lines, checked ignition leads, sparks seem good but am wondering about ignition curcuit in general.
Never like to leave a job unresolved, if it was mine I would make it right, but, as mentioned, I am dealing with a skinflint who makes Scrouge look like the lord of plenty.
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Fisty
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PostPosted: 21:09 - 15 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjdugen wrote:
Must put a few caveats in here. The actual machine belongs to my notoriously tight fisted mate and is a Cagiva Raptor


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand there we go.

Would have been helpful if you had said this from the start, I know nothing about the Raptor.

Am out.
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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 23:50 - 15 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coward!
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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 19:37 - 17 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, done quite a bit of research. After plowing through the usual crap, I came across a reference to the clutch interlock switch.
Seems that this is more than a safety feature, (not allowing the engine to start in gear until the clutch is pulled in), it also controls the mapping on the ECU.
This one had failed, being permanently open, as if the clutch was pulled in all the time. A temporary replacement has cleared up 90% of the hesitancy and lurching. Bottom line, if the engine starts with the clutch out, (away from the grip), the switch is faulty and will throw the ECU out.
Its still a crude system, but at least its rideable now. Hope this is a bit more helpful to anyone having similar problems.
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Matt B
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PostPosted: 10:16 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you told your mate he should junk his bike for the sake of a £10 switch?

Rolling Eyes

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 11:38 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah..... Here it comes, everyones suddenly an expert....
I had to dig through reams of posts from all the other 'experts' before finding even a mention of this switch and its multi function role. But, I now know this system a little too intimately, I won't get caught the next time. Neither will you now I've told you, in plain language, what the problem is.
Admittedly, now I know the problem, its a cheap fix, except, life is never that easy. The Raptor uses a screw in bullet type affair that seems to be specific to this long out of production model, so, not a £10 fix, but a £40 fix!
Putting that aside, how come it took me days to stumble on this when there are so many 'experts' around who could have mentioned this?
So far, its Bristol 0 Manchester 1 and, given it didn't cost £hundreds to sort I'm claiming the away goal bonus.
Sneer all you like, I doubt that many of you would have had this sorted any quicker, if at all!
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 11:48 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjdugen wrote:
Ah..... Here it comes, everyones suddenly an expert....


erm...

jjdugen wrote:
Suzuki TL 1000 idle / running problem.


jjdugen wrote:
The actual machine belongs to my notoriously tight fisted mate and is a Cagiva Raptor
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Fisty
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PostPosted: 12:12 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjdugen wrote:
Ah..... Here it comes, everyones suddenly an expert....
I had to dig through reams of posts from all the other 'experts' before finding even a mention of this switch and its multi function role. But, I now know this system a little too intimately, I won't get caught the next time. Neither will you now I've told you, in plain language, what the problem is.
Admittedly, now I know the problem, its a cheap fix, except, life is never that easy. The Raptor uses a screw in bullet type affair that seems to be specific to this long out of production model, so, not a £10 fix, but a £40 fix!
Putting that aside, how come it took me days to stumble on this when there are so many 'experts' around who could have mentioned this?
So far, its Bristol 0 Manchester 1 and, given it didn't cost £hundreds to sort I'm claiming the away goal bonus.
Sneer all you like, I doubt that many of you would have had this sorted any quicker, if at all!


This expert did ask if you had checked if It was stuck in the cold map.

I also suggested that you test the sensors. Congratulations you didn’t listen and stumbled across the fix.


I still think you’re a cunt.
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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 12:28 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't know why I bother answering, but what the hell...
The Raptor is a Suzuki TL, engine, loom, ecu, clocks wrapped in an MV made frame. If it was a Bimota, or even a Kawasaki, it would still be a Suzuki at its heart. The Suzuki forums are happy to give advice on all these other marques that use the engine. Don't misunderstand, the engine is a beaut, always been impressed with its quietness and smoothness. Given that I thought I had covered all the bases, I had to reach the inevitable conclusion that the fuelling was pretty bad.
If, Fisty, you had ACTUALLY said check the clutch switch, I would have done so, instead you come on like a Guru at whose shrine we should worship. Plain English, old chap, that's what we need.
Anyway, yet another nasty put to bed, sticks and stones and all that.
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Last edited by jjdugen on 19:42 - 19 Oct 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Fisty
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PostPosted: 12:40 - 18 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjdugen wrote:
Don't know why I bother answering, but what the hell...
The Raptor is a Suxuki TL, engine, loom, ecu, clocks wrapped in an MV made frame. If it was a Bimota, or even a Kawasaki, it would still be a Suzuki at its heart. The Suzuki forums are happy to give advice on all these other marques that use the engine. Don't misunderstand, the engine is a beaut, always been impressed with its quietness and smoothness. Given that I thought I had covered all the bases, I had to reach the inevitable conclusion that the fuelling was pretty bad.
If, Fisty, you had ACTUALLY said check the clutch switch, I would have done so, instead you come on like a Guru at whose shrine we should worship. Plain English, old chap, that's what we need.
Anyway, yet another nasty put to bed, sticks and stones and all that.


Asking you if you had checked the sensors and if it was stuck in the cold map is plain English.

Asking for advice on a TL1000 when it’s a Cagiva is not.

I did not even attempt at being a guru. I asked you questions and gave advice to which you ignored.

You are Sammy and I claim my 5 ponds.
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Matt B
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PostPosted: 14:16 - 19 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fisty wrote:
I asked you questions and gave advice to which you ignored.

You are Sammy and I claim my 5 ponds.


Classic Thumbs Up Laughing
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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 14:26 - 19 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

'Would have been helpful if you had said this from the start, I know nothing about the Raptor.

Am out.'

AT least I made the effort. BTW I take it you are aware that there are three maps in the ECU, normal temp, cold temp and the other map is.....?
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P.
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PostPosted: 16:56 - 19 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjdugen wrote:
normal temp, cold temp and the other map is.....?


The map that bike has, not running well map.
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Matt B
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PostPosted: 14:19 - 20 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjdugen wrote:
...the other map is.....?


Is it the "couldn't find his ass with both hands and a map" map? Wink
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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 14:33 - 20 Oct 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many a truth in sarcastic jest..... Still waiting for the answer though.....
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