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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 21:03 - 14 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Evoke - Starting to be a company to watch? .. Reply with quote

linuxyeti wrote:

Don't suppose the internet will take off either Rolling Eyes Laughing Laughing

Electric vehicles have had rather a long time to 'take off' - what with being older than ICE vehicles.

The limitation for the use that most people want, as ever; is batteries. And that's a technology that is needed for a significant portion of modern devices.

Of course - whether society/behaviour will adapt is another matter.
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 22:47 - 14 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Any idea what kind of battery tech they're using? Lead, nickel, lithium, dissident adrenal glands?


I think it varies, taobao only shows voltages in the adverts, the descriptions are (with my shite chinese) things like "standard battery", "great battery" and "black gold battery" (I may be seriously mistranslating the last one but the characters were black, gold and battery). The prices of them range depending on battery option. The cheapest with the cheapest battery can be had new for around £150, the same bike with the fancy battery can soar to over £300.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:02 - 14 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Evoke - Starting to be a company to watch? .. Reply with quote

G wrote:
linuxyeti wrote:

Don't suppose the internet will take off either Rolling Eyes Laughing Laughing

Electric vehicles have had rather a long time to 'take off' - what with being older than ICE vehicles.

The limitation for the use that most people want, as ever; is batteries. And that's a technology that is needed for a significant portion of modern devices.

Of course - whether society/behaviour will adapt is another matter.

AFAIK it's a case of they had their time (early 1900s) where they outsold the alternatives. It was a while ago but I recall a programme with James May where he said the range of electric vehicles wasn't radically different from back then. I realise we're talking about something bimbling along compared to keeping up with modern traffic, but range/recharge seems to be the continual sticking point until one of the promised breakthroughs materialise.
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G
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PostPosted: 23:21 - 14 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Evoke - Starting to be a company to watch? .. Reply with quote

Someone actually made a (albeit very much a 'prototype') electric bike in 1867!

New energy storage technologies are the big stumbling block.
But if it's a case of fast recharge, rather than a (Mr Fusion style, please Smile) Fuel Cell; we're going to introduce a whole array of other problems if they take off - namely getting said energy to where we want it.

If Energy is stored in chemical means transferred in a liquid/gas; it's a good bit less of a problem.

There's still a lot of good options for swappable batteries too, I'd say - but the realities of our society get in the way of that.


https://s.taobao.com/search?q=%E7%94%B5%E5%8A%A8%E6%BB%91%E6%9D%BF%E8%BD%A6&acm=lb-zebra-241046-2075404.1003.4.1812254&scm=1003.4.lb-zebra-241046-2075404.OTHER_14952593768552_1812254
Seems most use lithium on there (using Chrome's translate and looking at the size/shape of them.)
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 08:35 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Evoke - Starting to be a company to watch? .. Reply with quote

G wrote:


You searched electric scooter, those are more kids toys. Electric motorcycle 电动摩托车 (and yes they are scooters) is the stuff people use.

These things

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.178.5b4b8d2CsXQ8H&id=558404576529&ns=1&abbucket=15#detail (poverty version)

https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.72.5b4b8d2CsXQ8H&id=559839773571&ns=1&abbucket=15 (posh version)
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 10:34 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Evoke - Starting to be a company to watch? .. Reply with quote

wr6133 wrote:


You searched electric scooter, those are more kids toys. Electric motorcycle 电动摩托车 (and yes they are scooters) is the stuff people use.

These things

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.178.5b4b8d2CsXQ8H&id=558404576529&ns=1&abbucket=15#detail (poverty version)

https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.72.5b4b8d2CsXQ8H&id=559839773571&ns=1&abbucket=15 (posh version)


I nearly got run over several times by such things in Portugal last week. Harder to hear than a bicycle which at least has some clicking from the freewheel.
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G
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PostPosted: 10:49 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Evoke - Starting to be a company to watch? .. Reply with quote

wr6133 wrote:

These things

They both look to use lead acid.

The aforementioned 1000w scoot I've got comes with 4x12v lead acid batteries as stock, but mine came with a 13S lithium-ion battery the previous owner had upgraded too.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 11:18 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Evoke - Starting to be a company to watch? .. Reply with quote

G wrote:


New energy storage technologies are the big stumbling block.
But if it's a case of fast recharge, rather than a (Mr Fusion style, please Smile) Fuel Cell; we're going to introduce a whole array of other problems if they take off - namely getting said energy to where we want it.


Also a problem with 'at home' charging surely? I would think you would need some fancy expensive circuitry fitted on you house.
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 12:05 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Evoke - Starting to be a company to watch? .. Reply with quote

wr6133 wrote:
https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.72.5b4b8d2CsXQ8H&id=559839773571&ns=1&abbucket=15 (posh version)

I wonder how much that'd cost to get it shipped over the UK and road registered? Unless I'm reading the google translate/currency exchange wrong, that's £400 or thereabouts, right?
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G
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PostPosted: 12:11 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Evoke - Starting to be a company to watch? .. Reply with quote

For the most part I expect people wouldn't care about super-speedy charging at home.

That you can 'fill your fuel' at home is a benefit above ICE - that you no longer need to stop at public spots to refuel. I think most would be happy enough with the sort of power levels that homes offer now. For instance an electric shower is typically a bit over 10kw.
So with that wiring, for a bike like this we'd be talking the majority of a full charge in half an hour.

For a bigger car; more of an issue. But as I mentioned above; I would see being at home being more used to get the cheapest/most efficient charging methods, rather than the quickest.

Another option is to use these batteries as a plug-in store for the grid.
So instead of firing up another power station for half time in an England World Cup match, power is delivered not just from your car for your kettle, but sold to the neighbors for their kettles too.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:39 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Evoke - Starting to be a company to watch? .. Reply with quote

G wrote:
Another option is to use these batteries as a plug-in store for the grid.

Sure, who wouldn't want their car putting itself through unnecessary charge/discharge cycles, trusting that you'll only be billed for the net usage, and that it'll be fully charged when you need it?

Only sane, rational people, that's who.
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G
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PostPosted: 13:53 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Evoke - Starting to be a company to watch? .. Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

Sure, who wouldn't want their car putting itself through unnecessary charge/discharge cycles, trusting that you'll only be billed for the net usage, and that it'll be fully charged when you need it?

When you're renting the batteries - which at the moment a good proportion are in cars are still I think - it doesn't seem unreasonable for said sane people.

There's a 'thing' with just having some batteries sat in your home for similar reasons - I'm sure if they can work out the systems to do that ok; it then makes a lot of sense to have said batteries also being useful for other purposes.
(Though so far from all the things I've seen about said battery banks; I've not been entirely convinced.)
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:18 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Evoke - Starting to be a company to watch? .. Reply with quote

G wrote:
When you're renting the batteries - which at the moment a good proportion are in cars are still I think - it doesn't seem unreasonable for said sane people.

We're talking about the future though, not the now. Rental models are a short term fiddle that dodges the issue of long term value in a competitive mass market.

Oh, and if having one out of three concerns addressed assuages the other two.

The issue of it not being charged when you need it to be charged would be my biggie. I'm sure there would be a "Gonnae No" button, but then who wouldn't press it?
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G
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PostPosted: 14:33 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Evoke - Starting to be a company to watch? .. Reply with quote

I would expect that a good bit of that could be done intelligently enough to not be an issue - you're at work and have meetings planned for all day - no worries, we'll play with your power levels.
Sure, there will be times when such things mess up - you get that call from aunt Gladdice about her Kitten being run over mid-football-game which the cloud knows you've got a load of mates around for, so otherwise wouldn't have been going for more than a beer run.
Plenty of options to mitigate those issues I reckon.

For "the future" I think the elephant in the room, which I can see massively changing the whole landscape - is if all new cars have to be fully automated anyway.

From that; I could see personal cars being short-range electric only, attaching to a road-train pulled by a decent sized tractor unit or two for distances.
Car owners don't have to mix with the great unwashed, but are also removed from all those causes of congestion that 'humans' tend towards.
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 14:49 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shell have just installed their first charger, on a forecourt in that London. They aim to install more and more. BP are also following suit.

At the moment it's expensive to use, even with Shell's half price deal, but it's a start. Especially with the 2 big fuel providers getting in on it.

Faster chargers are on the horizon (150kw/h ones) but no mainstream car can currently use them.

Porsche has a 350kW charger that charges to 80% in 15 minutes.
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G
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PostPosted: 15:24 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScaredyCat wrote:

Porsche has a 350kW charger that charges to 80% in 15 minutes.

So, basically something like this (well 4 of the units you can see through the door there) running near full power to charge our 10 cars quickly:
https://www.products4automation.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/P4A145_CPL_Concordia_Biomass_Pic1-900x444.jpg?x31754

Let's say 10 people might want to fuel their cars fast in fifteen miunutes - something that would be considered to probably be very slow for a petrol station anywhere slightly popular.
So we need a 3.5MW power supply to the place that can do ten fast charges.
Total power transferred would be the total daily usage of 175 average houses for an entire day - so around 16800 average houses for the fifteen minute period!


Last edited by G on 17:00 - 15 Nov 2017; edited 1 time in total
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 16:54 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Lets say 10 people might


No, let's not. It's at their new HQ, there are 2 of them. The cars that can charge from them haven't even been built yet. It's also the maximum output. Not every car will need / require / be capable of that.
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G
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PostPosted: 17:26 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah; but then it's exactly the sort of thing a lot of the frozen-in- ICE-dinosaurs want, to consider replacing their pollutmobile. Smile

Last edited by G on 19:06 - 15 Nov 2017; edited 2 times in total
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 18:34 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any dinosaurs should be smushed into the ground to make more oil.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:51 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would milking Tef be considered a renewable fossil resource?
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nowhere.elysium
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PostPosted: 20:19 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Would milking Tef be considered a renewable fossil resource?

Regardless, it should be considered a fucking horrifying mental image.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 21:48 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScaredyCat wrote:
Shell have just installed their first charger, on a forecourt in that London. They aim to install more and more. BP are also following suit.

At the moment it's expensive to use, even with Shell's half price deal, but it's a start. Especially with the 2 big fuel providers getting in on it.

Faster chargers are on the horizon (150kw/h ones) but no mainstream car can currently use them.

Porsche has a 350kW charger that charges to 80% in 15 minutes.


It's still 15 minutes, or 30 if you are second in the queue, or 45 if 3rd. Bloody useless.

Thursday 13th September 2012, the Cobham Service Area, home to the UK’s largest filling station*, opens on the M25. It knocks Shell Beaconsfield off the top spot, which opened in 2009 on the M40 in Buckinghamshire. With 36 forecourt pumps and six dedicated high-speed HGV pumps totalling 141 nozzles, the site in Surrey can serve around 3,400 cars a day.

Hmm, how long will I have to wait if it changes to electric and I'm the 3,399 car to arrive, Thinking
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 22:40 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Re: Evoke - Starting to be a company to watch? .. Reply with quote

nowhere.elysium wrote:
that's £400 or thereabouts, right?


The fancy one is about £200 with no battery. £390 with the top spec 72V, 35.3A black gold battery (I'm still sure I'm translating that wrong but wife is not here to correct me).

Chinese scoots (boxed) fit on an oversized pallet so getting it in a container and shipped would probably be less than one would imagine. No idea what the import tariffs would be.

I suspect road registering it would be the main pain in the arse.
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 22:59 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
It's still 15 minutes, or 30 if you are second in the queue, or 45 if 3rd. Bloody useless.


It's 15 minutes if you don't have the foresight to charge your car at home (or hotel or where ever you're staying) or if your journey exceeds the range of your vehicle on one full charge. That's 250 miles with a Bolt, 249-295 with a Tesla depending on model. Do you really do that mileage every day?

Pretty sure a 15 minute break would be a good thing for any driver after nearly 300 miles.

Also if you just fitted chargers in parking spaces you could have a lot more people "filling" up at once while people stop for a bit of food/drink and a slash.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:57 - 15 Nov 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScaredyCat wrote:
It's 15 minutes if you don't have the foresight to charge your car at home (or hotel or where ever you're staying) or if your journey exceeds the range of your vehicle on one full charge. That's 250 miles with a Bolt, 249-295 with a Tesla depending on model. Do you really do that mileage every day?

Assuming people can charge them at home. For mass adoption they're either going to have to have charging points for every parking space, or the future will be this:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/03/26/article-0-12581E2E000005DC-286_634x411.jpg
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