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Billy Balthorpe
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PostPosted: 01:24 - 10 Dec 2017    Post subject: A2 Insurance question Reply with quote

My son will be taking his A2 licence over the next few months and I have a few questions about insurance.

If you buy a bike which needs to be restricted to comply with the 35KW limit, eg CB500S, Fazer 600, ER6F, do the insurance company REALLY screw you when compared to a standard bike which is just under the limit eg GS500?

Is it virtually impossible (cost wise) to get insured on bikes which are restricted from just under the maximum limit (about 92BHP?)? After all, you cant get in any more trouble with a bike which is restricted to 35KW however much more power it makes when unrestricted. For example if you restrict a Varadero 1000 to 35KW, the actual performance will be less than a restricted CB500 because of the power/weight ratio.

We have gone on the net to try to get some quotes on A2 restricted bikes, but on the usual price comparison sites, they do not have an option for an A2 licence, only provisional or full.

Does anyone have any examples of their own restricted bike insurance prices? My lad is 23 and has a clean provisional licence, he has been riding since 16.

Thanks.
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DRZ4Hunned
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PostPosted: 01:31 - 10 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm 22, on A2 also. 5 years ncb.

Fazer 600 ('restricted') and DRZ400 for me is £300 annually TPO.

I got a quote for the Fazer alone for £96 Laughing
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Billy Balthorpe
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PostPosted: 01:33 - 10 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who is your insurer?
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NJD
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PostPosted: 02:32 - 10 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: A2 Insurance question Reply with quote

Billy Balthorpe wrote:
We have gone on the net to try to get some quotes on A2 restricted bikes, but on the usual price comparison sites, they do not have an option for an A2 licence, only provisional or full.


Then full is the option you choose: answer the question they're asking.

Billy Balthorpe wrote:
Does anyone have any examples of their own restricted bike insurance prices? My lad is 23 and has a clean provisional licence, he has been riding since 16.


I think the issue is you're attempting to run hypothetical quotes and therefore are getting prices for policies you almost definatly wont be buying and therefore inventing a problem that does not yet exist.

I'd say forget A2 and wait instead to do A when he turns 24: at most you're going to get a year out of that A2 license and then you'll be back pumping another huge sum into getting another license or faffing around transporting bike to and from for tests claiming "insured". Far easier to wait it out and get it done once and not enter into the faffery license system of categories.
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DRZ4Hunned
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PostPosted: 10:05 - 10 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy Balthorpe wrote:
Who is your insurer?


MCE, the next cheapest was double the price.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:50 - 10 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: A2 Insurance question Reply with quote

NJD wrote:
Billy Balthorpe wrote:
We have gone on the net to try to get some quotes on A2 restricted bikes, but on the usual price comparison sites, they do not have an option for an A2 licence, only provisional or full.

Then full is the option you choose: answer the question they're asking.

So much that.

It's the only truthful answer to the question that they're asking. A, A2, A1 or even AM are not provisional licenses. They're the ostensible professionals, you shouldn't have to be explaining licensing to them.

The problem comes when they ask if the bike has been modified in any way. Entirely depending on the insurer, if you answer yes, it's restricted to 35kW, you may receive the same wallet raping as if you'd said it had a turbo-nitrous-charger system.

If your goal is to save money on the premium, the way to do it is most likely to say "full license, bike not modified", and if any questions do get asked later, take the line that of course it's restricted to 35kW, it would be illegal to ride it otherwise, why would they assume otherwise, don't they know the law?

Which they quite probably don't, at least for the first few tiers of customer abuse.

Up to you, but being honest is likely to either:

1) Cost you significantly more.
2) Get you exactly the same policy when some phone monkey just ignores everything you've said and puts it through as "full, unmodified" in order to earn their commission.

It's entirely up to you, there's no good answer to this issue.
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Billy Balthorpe
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PostPosted: 19:59 - 10 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

DRZ, Thanks for the info, that's the kind of thing I was after.

NJD, As far a I knew, the A2 wasn't a Full licence, but a restricted one, you can not ride anything you like on an A2, and therefore I wouldn't have thought it would qualify as a "Full" licence. I would have thought it would be called an A2 restricted licence. This was the type of licence opotion I was looking for when trying to get prices for insurance.
As for inventing a problem that does not exist, what I'm trying to find out is the approximate costs of insurance on different A2 restricted bikes. I don't want to get to the point where he has passed his A2 and find out that the cost to insure a restricted Fazer 600 was beyond the reach of a guy on fairly low wages who hasn't got rich parents.
He doesn't want to spend another year on a 125, hence the need to pass the A2 and get on a bike which will let him cruise at 75 to 80 on a long European trip with the rest of us. Waiting isn't really an option.
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NJD
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PostPosted: 21:31 - 10 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy Balthorpe wrote:
I don't want to get to the point where he has passed his A2 and find out that the cost to insure a restricted Fazer 600 was beyond the reach


Depends how many crashes he has or hasn't had and how many years no claims bonus he has.

Let say, for example, he has seven because he's never crashed then if the cost of a Fazer 600 is too high now I doubt he'll be able to afford one anytime soon, license or otherwise.

Lets say, for example, he's still reporting a crash then high prices are going to remain high.

Insurance is a lottery at the best of times, probably best to find a bike that is affordable rather than one that's desirable for the first year.

You really won't know what figure you're looking at until he's got a license in his hand with a "obtained date."

Also keep in mind TPO might be worth going for: excess more than the policy and there's no payout. Or consider difference between policy price and excess because max paid out in event of claim. Chunky chain > donating money to insurance IMO.
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dydey90
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PostPosted: 22:02 - 10 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I only had A2, I declared it as a full licence and had to do the whole shenanigans of sending off a copy of my licence (paper counterpart back then too whatwhat) and they did ask for the restriction certificate as part of that but never questioned the entitlement category.

If a learner driver passed their A2 tests and sent off a green provisional photocard, they would receive a pink card back.
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Billy Balthorpe
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PostPosted: 22:22 - 10 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

NJD, what I call affordable (just) for my Lad is £500 and under. If we can get 12 months insurance for that, we will both be happy. He has had no accidents and has about 4 years no claims. He's had the odd year off bikes due to involvement with women.

DRZ further up this thread, reckons he got a quote for the Fazer only for £96, I know that doesn't mean that they would actually cover him for that much cash, the bas*ards. But its a starting point, and we would be very happy with the £300 TPO for the Fazer only which DRZ mentions.

If anyone else has any examples of A2 insurance costs I would appreciate it.
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Wonko The Sane
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PostPosted: 23:12 - 10 Dec 2017    Post subject: Re: A2 Insurance question Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:


The problem comes when they ask if the bike has been modified in any way. Entirely depending on the insurer, if you answer yes, it's restricted to 35kW, you may receive the same wallet raping as if you'd said it had a turbo-nitrous-charger system.


I did my tests before the change and was on a 25kw (33bhp) restriction and insurance was fairly straight forwards, some wanted proof of restriction when I bought a policy via the web (via thebikeinsurer.com comparison site)

I did try and get a quote over the phone and ended up having an argument and being hung up on as, when I said it had a restrictor in I was told " we'll have to check cover for performance enhancement"

Telling them that the restrictor is a performance retarding modification got

"you can't use that term sir, it's offensive"

My attempts to explain that this is the correct engineering term made no difference, I could not get the person to understand that the performance was less, and eventually got hung up on for 'abusive language'


if they can't understand, move on as they're going to either put the cost up or get it wrong.
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asta1
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PostPosted: 00:36 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an MT-07 on an A2 license. It is actually restricted, but the site had no A2 option so I just put full license down and paid my monies. No one asked about it, although they did want a picture of my license and one of those codes to check DVLA records. Didn't mention the restriction at all.

Cost was £650, 1 years NCB, garaged bike, fully comp, bike valued at £5,500, 21 years old.

I probably would still do the A2 at 22. Test costs what it costs and if you go for a school this time it'll be DIYable for the full A. Buy something second hand and reasonably old thats applicable for the A and crack on. AS long as he doesn't bin it you shouldn't lose much and the longest anyone ever spends on one is 2 years either way.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 01:02 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he said he's 23. It depends on how long until he's 24 and waiting would avoid all the restriction ballache.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:47 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy Balthorpe wrote:
As far a I knew, the A2 wasn't a Full licence, but a restricted one

It's an A2 license, is what it is. The bad news is that the insurance ombudsman declared that the old style "A <= 25kW" category wasn't a "full" license.

The backstory to that though is that it was an eBike policy and they are/were one of the very, very few insurers to actually offer A1, A2 and A licence categories.

As you've found, comparison sites and most brokers are too pig ignorant to know the basics of motorcycle licensing and only offer you a choice between "complete lie" (provisional) and "not the whole truth (full).

It's really up to you whether you want to try and explain their job to them.


Billy Balthorpe wrote:
As for inventing a problem that does not exist, what I'm trying to find out is the approximate costs of insurance on different A2 restricted bikes.

Ham. Insurance is a complete lottery from person to person, postcode to postcode, and day to day. Anyone else's answer is likely to give you false hope or pessimism.
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arry
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PostPosted: 09:15 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

As you've found, comparison sites and most brokers are too pig ignorant to know the basics of motorcycle licensing and only offer you a choice between "complete lie" (provisional) and "not the whole truth (full).


Agree entirely with everything typed Roger. But I would just make sure..... if you tap through the comparison site and through to the provider's portal side to complete the policy, they MAY have the correct options for you to select.

The problem, as a provider, with plugging into a comparison site is you have to use their question set and drop downs. Sometimes (OK quite a lot of the time) theirs doesn't map very well and there's no way they're going to change it, even if it is dogshit, because then all the other providers have to redo their mapping process.

In summary, just be careful what's put in at the front end matches what comes out of the back end and if it doesn't, do take the time to review the quote on the provider's side of the process.
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DRZ4Hunned
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PostPosted: 13:02 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you tried different postcodes, jobs, mileage, voluntary excess, where the bike is stored etc?

My quotes varied hugely depending on these and I was more 'inclined' to go for the cheaper options even if they were stretching the truth a little.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:35 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

And it might not go without saying, but do your quotes in a private browsing session (so no cookies stored) using Mr Fakename from a couple of doors along.
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Qyburn
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PostPosted: 13:48 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
The bad news is that the insurance ombudsman declared that the old style "A <= 25kW" category wasn't a "full" license..

I don't read the decision that way, in the case considered the rider had a full licence without the restriction in place, the point in dispute was how long he had held that licence. The equivalent in modern terms would be say passing your A1 in 2015, and passing A2 in 2017 but telling the insurer you'd had your licence since 2015.

For what it's worth to my mind if the insurer only accepts full or provisional, then the question relates to the licence group which permits you to ride the bike concerned.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:09 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Qyburn wrote:
I don't read the decision that way, in the case considered the rider had a full licence without the restriction in place, the point in dispute was how long he had held that licence.

Because they didn't consider "A<=25kW" as a full license.


Qyburn wrote:
For what it's worth to my mind if the insurer only accepts full or provisional, then the question relates to the licence group which permits you to ride the bike concerned.

So, you do disagree with their decision?

Hint: how much power does a Honda CD200 Benley make?
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:36 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:

As you've found, comparison sites and most brokers are too pig ignorant to know the basics of motorcycle licensing and only offer you a choice between "complete lie" (provisional) and "not the whole truth (full).


Agree entirely with everything typed Roger. But I would just make sure..... if you tap through the comparison site and through to the provider's portal side to complete the policy, they MAY have the correct options for you to select.

The problem, as a provider, with plugging into a comparison site is you have to use their question set and drop downs. Sometimes (OK quite a lot of the time) theirs doesn't map very well and there's no way they're going to change it, even if it is dogshit, because then all the other providers have to redo their mapping process.

In summary, just be careful what's put in at the front end matches what comes out of the back end and if it doesn't, do take the time to review the quote on the provider's side of the process.

They don't always let you. Had this with my car insurance policy, I couldn't review before buying it Confused

Rogerborg wrote:
The backstory to that though is that it was an eBike policy and they are/were one of the very, very few insurers to actually offer A1, A2 and A licence categories.

IIRC it was a category they made up, there was no A2 category back then, there was an A2 test which got you an 'A' restricted licence.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:36 - 11 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
IIRC [A2] was a category [eBike] made up, there was no A2 category back then, there was an A2 [test bike] which got you an 'A' restricted licence.

Spot on, nearly. However, back in the paper counterpart days, DVLA decided to record previous entitlement as "A2" even though on the licence it was A with a "<= 25kW" endorsement on it.

When challenged, DVLA told me that they were unaware of this, or stealing 2 years of entitlement when they upgraded 25kW to A, causing any issues. Rolling Eyes

De facto, everyone knew what must have been meant by an "A2 licence" back then though, like when people talk about "doing their DAS".

Where it became a giggle was when eBike and the DVLA kept the same categories after A2 became an Actual Thing. Brick Wall
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