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MPs to vote on Police pursuit rules on 19 Dec

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Freddyfruitba...
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PostPosted: 18:37 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: MPs to vote on Police pursuit rules on 19 Dec Reply with quote

Apologies if this has already been flagged elsewhere - I was surprised nobody's apparently mentioned it already?

A proposed new law (the Emergency Response Drivers [Protections] Bill), will exempt police and other emergency drivers from being done for dangerous driving during a pursuit. Can't be bad...

At the above link there's an MP's email directory and a suggested template email to send them requesting their support of the Bill.

Go...
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:13 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, but as a private member's bill, it's just grandstanding.

I can't see it passing, since the wording will either be too weak to offer protection, or so strong as to let them literally get away with murder.

The problem could be solved simply by not prosecuting coppers. That's a matter for the IPCC, the CPS and the Fiscal, all of whom would snap and snarl about their "independence", i.e. unaccountability to the decent law abiding public.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 19:31 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, the Police don't need more powers, or more protections or what have you. They already have the ability to do what they need to do to uphold the law. The point is, they don't because they are concerned about litigation. Overly so, one might argue. If one in 100 pursuits ends in a member of the public suing the police, then that's a risk worth taking IMO.

What we really need is a law change so that on balance of probabilities if the pursued suspect was in commission of a crime, that he is not able to sue the police if injured. This would improve the chances of a pursuit passing the risk assessment phase by a massive margin.
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Hong Kong Phooey
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PostPosted: 21:07 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

They need to start tasering more ambulance chasers.

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Itchy
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PostPosted: 21:12 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well things have changed a bit in regards to law (sort of).

An old man shot some thieves in his home. The CPS didn't prosecute him for this.

They did however prosecute him for an unlicensed firearm and he did get 9 months porridge.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj7x93zpIXYAhXHIcAKHWCMB7gQqUMIKzAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2F2017%2F12%2F11%2Freclusive-pensioner-did-nothing-necessary-shot-dead-burglar%2F&usg=AOvVaw3DPZ-pP5u-eyA3dW0rnzth
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 21:32 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

9 months isn't a bad shout for something that is claimed to have an immediate 5 years. Thumbs Up
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M.C
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PostPosted: 21:47 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
The thing is, the Police don't need more powers, or more protections or what have you. They already have the ability to do what they need to do to uphold the law. The point is, they don't because they are concerned about litigation. Overly so, one might argue.

If a copper doesn't want to chase bad guys then maybe they're in the wrong job Thinking

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
9 months isn't a bad shout for something that is claimed to have an immediate 5 years. Thumbs Up

I knew someone who got 10. Although I'm assuming it might have been more a case of the certificate expiring, than a completely illegal firearm (in Itchys example).

Link fail btw Smile
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 22:28 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy's link works fine. Diverts to Torygraph. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/11/reclusive-pensioner-did-nothing-necessary-shot-dead-burglar/
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 22:36 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Well things have changed a bit in regards to law (sort of).

An old man shot some thieves in his home. The CPS didn't prosecute him for this.


Not sure the law has changed. In the Tony Martin case he was accused of lying in wait (not sure if you can really be guilty of that in your own home, but anyway) and then shooting the burglars as they fled, all of which was deemed unnecessary. In your link the burglars were tooled up with all sorts of nasties and the old chap and his sister were fighting them off.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:30 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:

I know it was the all the additional... &vagdvadja%%%

Ah android Wub
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Keir
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PostPosted: 23:44 - 12 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
They already have the ability to do what they need to do to uphold the law.


that's the problem, people think they can do anything but by the letter of the law they can only break speed limits, go through red lights and round keep left bollards. all this ramming cars (and bikes more recently) is clearly dangerous driving and something that police can be prosecuted for. in these days of litigation, ambulance chasers and overbearing IPCC I can see why they would want more protections.
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TbirdX
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PostPosted: 01:02 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mailed my MP this is the response...

Thank you for your email. I have just spoken to Henry Bellingham (see attached), in the voting lobby (we are voting on Brexit) and he has kindly agreed that I can be one of the sponsors of his Bill.

I fully support the aims of the Bill.

Thank you for alerting me. It is an important Bill.


Sounds good for 1 vote at least then Smile
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B5234FT
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PostPosted: 11:22 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The standard of police driving is way below where it needs to be already, without giving them carte blance to exercise little man syndrome.

If a bike thief who has omitted to wear a helmet makes a mistake during a pursuit and is killed, so be it. They put themselves in harms way by performing a criminal activity, and then declined basic protective equipment in the hope they wouldnt be pursued.

If however one innocent citizen is killed by some banzai copper doing 95 around a blind bend on the wrong side of the road, then the cost will have been too high.

Protection from financial litigation, sure. Protection from criminal charges, no. The Police need to be held accountable for their decisions, like everyone else.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:47 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

B5234FT wrote:
If however one innocent citizen is killed by some banzai copper doing 95 around a blind bend on the wrong side of the road, then the cost will have been too high.

Especially if it's a children, eh?

They can already do 95 in a hot pursuit. Wrong siding, well, we'll see when we see the bill.

I've been unable to find any text, but have emailed Sir Topham Hatt asking to be gibsed a copy.
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B5234FT
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PostPosted: 14:03 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont mind what speed they do, or what their road position is, as long as its appropriate in the circumstances.

Having had to put my car down the verge to avoid an oncoming police car on the wrong side of a blind bend without its lights on, I'm simply not prepared to pave the way to them having no accountability.

The test for dangerous driving is:

Quote:
A person is to be regarded as driving dangerously for the purposes of sections 1 and 2 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 if

the way he/she drives falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver, and it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous


Nothing whatsoever about speed, or road position. I see nothing wrong with trying police officers in front of a jury of their peers when the standard of their driving has been below standard.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:41 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

B5234FT wrote:
I dont mind what speed they do, or what their road position is, as long as its appropriate in the circumstances.

They're pursuing a bike thief.

Collateral damage is acceptable, as long as it's you and not me.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:36 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFAIK being a total expert having watched road wars once, they can use tactical contact and do break off a pursuit if the perps are being particularly reckless (wrong way down a dual carriageway type thing).
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 19:39 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
B5234FT wrote:
I dont mind what speed they do, or what their road position is, as long as its appropriate in the circumstances.

They're pursuing a bike thief.

Collateral damage is acceptable, as long as it's you and not me.


So long as it's been called in, rather than just Ploddy McPlodface tanking his interceptor for a laugh, because we all know 5-0 are beacons of honesty and integrity.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 19:58 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keir wrote:
that's the problem, people think they can do anything but by the letter of the law they can only break speed limits, go through red lights and round keep left bollards. all this ramming cars (and bikes more recently) is clearly dangerous driving and something that police can be prosecuted for. in these days of litigation, ambulance chasers and overbearing IPCC I can see why they would want more protections.

I thought they could be done for any offence if they can't justify their actions?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:15 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
So long as it's been called in [...] we all know 5-0 are beacons of honesty and integrity.

Called in to whom then? Another 5-0 shining his backside?

Your phone might get a bit busy if you have to pre-approve all scrote murderings.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 22:43 - 13 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
So long as it's been called in [...] we all know 5-0 are beacons of honesty and integrity.

Called in to whom then? Another 5-0 shining his backside?

Your phone might get a bit busy if you have to pre-approve all scrote murderings.


Don't they keep logs @ central command or whatever it is? More difficult to forge that than make notebooks go missing, as is the norm.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:18 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
Don't they keep logs @ central command or whatever it is?

Why would that make a difference to what happens on the road?

I'm genuinely confused by what you imagine would happen if they "had" to call it in.

I stress "had" to since in the hilarious case of mummy's little angle Henry Hicks, the coppers seem to have got away with it because they hadn't called it in, therefore it wasn't technically a "pursuit". Round of applause. Clapping
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 14 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
Don't they keep logs @ central command or whatever it is?

Why would that make a difference to what happens on the road?

I'm genuinely confused by what you imagine would happen if they "had" to call it in.

I stress "had" to since in the hilarious case of mummy's little angle Henry Hicks, the coppers seem to have got away with it because they hadn't called it in, therefore it wasn't technically a "pursuit". Round of applause. Clapping


Sets a dangerous precedent.
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Fruit'n'nut
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PostPosted: 21:57 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
The thing is, the Police don't need more powers, or more protections or what have you. They already have the ability to do what they need to do to uphold the law. The point is, they don't because they are concerned about litigation. Overly so, one might argue. If one in 100 pursuits ends in a member of the public suing the police, then that's a risk worth taking IMO.


Keir wrote:

that's the problem, people think they [police] can do anything but by the letter of the law they can only break speed limits, go through red lights and round keep left bollards. all this ramming cars (and bikes more recently) is clearly dangerous driving and something that police can be prosecuted for. in these days of litigation, ambulance chasers and overbearing IPCC I can see why they would want more protections.



Keir is on the right lines with regard to the contradictions between driving law and law on use of force.

It's also worth mentioning that the issues with police driving don't relate only to pursuits, but to response driving in general. Neither is it about the public suing the police, but police officers being prosecuted for doing what they're trained to do (and what - I think - the public generally expect them to do.)



MarJay wrote:

What we really need is a law change so that on balance of probabilities if the pursued suspect was in commission of a crime, that he is not able to sue the police if injured. This would improve the chances of a pursuit passing the risk assessment phase by a massive margin.



Pursuit risk assessment doesn't consider how likely the police are to be sued by the suspect in the event of an injury, so a law change in this respect wouldn't make any difference at all to the decision to pursue, or to authorise a pursuit. Pursuit risk assessment isn't a "phase" either but an ongoing process throughout the pursuit. If you're interested in learning more, search for the College of Policing's APP on police pursuits.
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Fruit'n'nut
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PostPosted: 22:02 - 15 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

the coppers seem to have got away with it because they hadn't called it in, therefore it wasn't technically a "pursuit". Round of applause. Clapping



The officers not calling it in doesn't mean it was/wasn't a pursuit.

I think the "getting away with it" probably leaned more on the definition of a pursuit (see APP) and whether or not Hicks was aware of any requirement to stop.

I.e. was there or wasn't there any change in his manner of riding, when the police vehicles were following him.

I don't know all the details, but that's my take on it as an interested onlooker.
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