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Remainers. Euro superstate: in or out?

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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 12:51 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:


Itchy wrote:
Turkey

Not a European country.
Not fufilling the Copenhagen criteria.


FTFY.


That is a matter of politics really. Is Cyprus in Europe? Morocco once tried to join the EU, failed the Copenhagen criteria, not being a European country.

EDIT: Do not worry though, you're gonna be long gone when the EU will even consider letting Turkey join, although they were close in the past.
Plus, and I hope this will never change, to accept a new member you need a unanimous decision. I can't see the Slavic EU members giving the Turks a green light on that. But again, at that time we're going to be probably expelled from the EU for not submitting to Schultz's crazy megalomaniac plan.

EDIT II:

What is Europe?

The geographical perspective - Europe is defined by the Ural Mountains, the Bosphorus Strait and the Black Sea = Georgia and Azerbaijan are in Europe, but Kazakhstan (right next to those two) is not.

The political, cultural and civilization values - What we, Europeans, consider European. For instance, Berlusconi once wanted Israel in the EU, because he finds it European country.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 12:54 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


FTFY.


Ceuta ,Melilla
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:13 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:


FTFY.


Ceuta ,Melilla


Moors, Spain, 711AD. Spain is a part of Islamic Africa? Confused

How far back do you want to go? Smile
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 13:19 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


Moors, Spain, 711AD. Spain is a part of Islamic Africa? Confused

How far back do you want to go? Smile


I don't need to go back in time at all because those two cities are still there today they're considered Spanish they're in the EU yet at the same time they're not in Europe.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 13:21 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
mpd72 wrote:
But we're still throwing EU money at it for some bizarre reason.


To keep them happy, so the Turks don't flood Europe. And yes, it is Germans fault, as always. Wink


No, that bribe is a different pot of money. We're still paying money on top to make them EU friendly.

Merkel wants it reduced.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-turkey-summit/merkel-presses-allies-to-cut-funds-for-turkeys-eu-bid-idUKKBN1CO2B5
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 13:25 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:


FTFY.


Ceuta ,Melilla


That is an interesting point, alhough misused. Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish enclaves = Spain is in the EU, thefore its territories are.

But not with the ''full membership'' if that makes any sense.

EDIT: Let me check the TFEU, my memory of all this stuff is vague.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:43 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The two 'enclaves' mentioned by Itchy are not currently "under consideration" for EU membership. Turkey is not currently in the EU. In my view, it shouldn't be considered for it either, although as Rhyno points out, not our problem anymore, mate.

If Itchy wants to get into arguments about colonialism, ah'm oot Razz
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 13:55 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
No, that bribe is a different pot of money. We're still paying money on top to make them EU friendly.

Merkel wants it reduced.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-turkey-summit/merkel-presses-allies-to-cut-funds-for-turkeys-eu-bid-idUKKBN1CO2B5


Yes, the ''human rights'' was the argument several times before. Turkey trying to join the EU is nothing new. It's been going on for years. They were trying to get in before the UK even considered it.

But it's not just democracy and human rights that are troublesome for Turks. They also refuse/d to acknowledge they Cyprus as a sovereign country. And that might be the deal breaker here. In the 70's, iirc, Turks were on the way to Europe and everything looked alright, but then Cyprus joined the EU = Europe acknowledged it as a sovereign country and Turks got pissed. Long story short, before Cyprus joined the EU, Turks were just a few more signatures from the Common market. After Cyprus joined and Turks showed their displeasure with this, EU stopped all the negotiations. Turkey can not join the EU unless their conflict with Cyprus is solved = one of the Copenhagen criteria.

Even if today Turks do all they can to cooperate with the EU, there are still things that might never get solved. The Cyprus question, the last year's putsch, their human rights issues...
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 13:59 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
mpd72 wrote:
No, that bribe is a different pot of money. We're still paying money on top to make them EU friendly.

Merkel wants it reduced.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-turkey-summit/merkel-presses-allies-to-cut-funds-for-turkeys-eu-bid-idUKKBN1CO2B5


Yes, the ''human rights'' was the argument several times before. Turkey trying to join the EU is nothing new. It's been going on for years. They were trying to get in before the UK even considered it.

But it's not just democracy and human rights that are troublesome for Turks. They also refuse/d to acknowledge they Cyprus as a sovereign country. And that might be the deal breaker here. In the 70's, iirc, Turks were on the way to Europe and everything looked alright, but then Cyprus joined the EU = Europe acknowledged it as a sovereign country and Turks got pissed. Long story short, before Cyprus joined the EU, Turks were just a few more signatures from the Common market, after Cyprus joined and Turkes showed their displeasure with this, EU stopped all the negotiations, Turkey can not join the EU unless their conflict with Cyprus is solved = one of the Copenhagen criteria.

Even if today Turks do all they can to cooperate with the EU, there are still things that might never get solved. The Cyprus question, the last year's putsch, their human rights issues...


If the Eu and Britain can sort a deal out without a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, without Britain being in the single market, anything seems plausible in my mind
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 14:26 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:
If the Eu and Britain can sort a deal out without a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, without Britain being in the single market, anything seems plausible in my mind


It's more plausible than Turkey joining the EU any soon.

But I can't really see an open border between the UK and Ireland (EU) withough the UK being a part of the Common market.

Free movement of:
1) EU/UK citizens = A question of the UK/EU security. I know you only want to let Irish in and feck the rest of the EU, but how are you going to make sure, with no hard borders, that only Irish are entering the UK? Plus, how are you going to convince the EU, that discrimination of other 26 nations is alright in this case?

2) Goods and services = If UK won't be a part of the Common market, this will become impossible to do so. Even if you don't like people telling you what to do, we do need a Common regulation in this area, so Goods made in either UK or EU meet the same standards of quality and safety (*yes I do know there is the double standards food scandal going on right now), the same goes for Services.

Could selectively picking what goods and services might be freely imported work? What if then manufacturers of other goods and providers of other services sue the UK and/or EU for discrimination?

3) Labour = I can see this work without a visa, or letting every single EU citizen to work in the UK.

-----------------------------------
The only solution? UK has to stay a member of the Common market. The outcome? Everything above will stay as it was and you newly won't have a say in the legislation process + you will pay a fee to participate on all this = UK loosing the Brexit, as this would effectively mean a full submission while giving up all the power you had (even if you decided not to use it in the past, the EU did not happen over night and you had a chance to influence its developement. Even Farage can admit that.)

Alternative plan? Convince Irish to leave the EU, make alliance with them.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 14:34 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
Rob Fzs wrote:
If the Eu and Britain can sort a deal out without a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, without Britain being in the single market, anything seems plausible in my mind


It's more plausible than Turkey joining the EU any soon.

But I can't really see an open border between the UK and Ireland (EU) withough the UK being a part of the Common market.

Free movement of:
1) EU/UK citizens = A question of the UK/EU security. I know you only want to let Irish in and feck the rest of the EU, but how are you going to make sure, with no hard borders, that only Irish are entering the UK? Plus, how are you going to convince the EU, that discrimination of other 26 nations is alright in this case?

2) Goods and services = If UK won't be a part of the Common market, this will become impossible to do so. Even if you don't like people telling you what to do, we do need a Common regulation in this area, so Goods made in either UK or EU meet the same standards of quality and safety (*yes I do know there is the double standards food scandal going on right now), the same goes for Services.

Could selectively picking what goods and services might be freely imported work? What if then manufacturers of other goods and providers of other services sue the UK and/or EU for discrimination?

3) Labour = I can see this work without a visa.

-----------------------------------
The only solution? UK has to stay a member of the Common market. The outcome? Everything above will stay as it was and you newly won't have a say in the legislation process + you will pay a fee to participate on all this = UK loosing the Brexit, as this would effectively mean a full submission while giving up all the power you had (even if you decided not to use it in the past, the EU did not happen over night and you had a chance to influence its developement. Even Farage can admit that.)

Alternative plan? Convince Irish to leave the EU, make alliance with them.


Well they're selling it as being inside the SM, whilst not, which is just kicking the can down the road , if it gets settled without being in the Sm, anything can be done

The whole thing on Turkey is lolz, one day i'm sure they will join the Eu, and seeing as the referendum we had was the first for 40 years, the next could be another 40 years away, so in that time, it was highly plausible Turkey could have joined.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 14:35 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who says we want to let the Irish in? Laughing

Brexit is a good opportunity to get rid of travellers. Thumbs Up
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:41 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, this thread has drifted a long way away from the subject. But I suspect that remoaners want a soft border between NI and the EU so that they can all make good on their promises to leave the UK when we leave the EU Laughing
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 14:42 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Who says we want to let the Irish in? Laughing

Brexit is a good opportunity to get rid of travellers. Thumbs Up


See, that would work 100% with no legal implications. Thumbs Up
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 14:46 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
Alternative plan? Convince Irish to leave the EU, make alliance with them.

The UK would need to invade Ireland again to make that happen.

Ireland lived in the shadow of the UK (or rather, England) for 800 years or so, most heavily between about 1600 to 1900, and has repeatedly tried to make continental alliances to establish counterbalance,

With Spain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Kinsale#Spanish_landing

With France: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Rebellion_of_1798#French_intervention

With Germany, and even the USA: https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/the-german-american-role-in-fight-for-irish-freedom-1.2899491

The EU has finally given Ireland a solid continental alliance that can counterbalance English influence. And it's not anti-English, per se (that's always been more of a rallying call for independence); it's a matter of sovereignty. Just like the junior partner in a coalition needs to follow the senior partner's lead, the UK is so much larger than Ireland that Ireland would be forced to follow. Qualified Majority Voting is a substantial improvement on Majority Voting in protecting minorities, and when you combine it with solidarity from other smaller nations, we can compromise on the small stuff while getting support on vital interests.

***

On the general topic of Brexit, I think this is highly relevant:

http://nautil.us/issue/55/trust/why-your-brain-hates-other-people-rp
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:47 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:

The whole thing on Turkey is lolz, one day i'm sure they will join the Eu, and seeing as the referendum we had was the first for 40 years, the next could be another 40 years away, so in that time, it was highly plausible Turkey could have joined.



http://i.imgur.com/EMY5Dhq.png
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 14:55 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Well, this thread has drifted a long way away from the subject. But I suspect that remoaners want a soft border between NI and the EU so that they can all make good on their promises to leave the UK when we leave the EU Laughing


It's more about the spastics in Ireland being kept appeased so they dont blow up border post's that perform checks on Potato quality.

I'm in no doubt at all the Eu is using Ireland, you can tell this by the denial the remainers have over it, the very same denial they had about an Eu army being created , brexit has opened up the debate on NI though, which is good because it's usually just ignored.

They go on about the EU distinguishing nationalism, but by the tone of some of the Irish i've spoken to, they have a mighty fucking chip on their shoulder about the Uk, usually some horse shit not done to them, but one of their countrymen centuries ago
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Ste
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PostPosted: 14:57 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
See, that would work 100% with no legal implications. Thumbs Up

Oh noes, they might take it all the way to their European Court of Human Rights!!

Good times. Wub
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 15:03 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
mpd72 wrote:
No, that bribe is a different pot of money. We're still paying money on top to make them EU friendly.

Merkel wants it reduced.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-turkey-summit/merkel-presses-allies-to-cut-funds-for-turkeys-eu-bid-idUKKBN1CO2B5


Yes, the ''human rights'' was the argument several times before. Turkey trying to join the EU is nothing new. It's been going on for years. They were trying to get in before the UK even considered it.

But it's not just democracy and human rights that are troublesome for Turks. They also refuse/d to acknowledge they Cyprus as a sovereign country. And that might be the deal breaker here. In the 70's, iirc, Turks were on the way to Europe and everything looked alright, but then Cyprus joined the EU = Europe acknowledged it as a sovereign country and Turks got pissed. Long story short, before Cyprus joined the EU, Turks were just a few more signatures from the Common market. After Cyprus joined and Turks showed their displeasure with this, EU stopped all the negotiations. Turkey can not join the EU unless their conflict with Cyprus is solved = one of the Copenhagen criteria.

Even if today Turks do all they can to cooperate with the EU, there are still things that might never get solved. The Cyprus question, the last year's putsch, their human rights issues...


So why are the EU still paying them to ready them for membership?

This is on top of the bribe to slightly control the flood of Muslims into Europe.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 15:09 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:
See, that would work 100% with no legal implications. Thumbs Up

Oh noes, they might take it all the way to their European Court of Human Rights!!

Good times. Wub


European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with the EU. Shocked

If you closed the borders, being a sovering country, you have a right to controll your own borders. Any law suit/action would be found unnecessary/redundant and the Court wouldn't even bother with it. Your country, your rules.

Now, if you had open border with Ireland and you would selectively pick what nationals may enter your country, that could be a would create a reason for a law suit.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 15:13 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

We wouldn't be selectively picking what nationals may enter our country, we just don't want travellers. Razz
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kippyzona
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PostPosted: 15:27 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turkey was offered EU membership if we could invade Iraq from their soil.
They said No. They can't be that keen to join.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 15:29 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

thats a new one
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 16:03 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
So why are the EU still paying them to ready them for membership?

This is on top of the bribe to slightly control the flood of Muslims into Europe.


I have no idea. Thumbs Up

Even if Turks started to play nice, ''human rights'', they would still need to acknowledge the Cyprus as a sovereign country and convince all the member states to accept Turkey in the Union.

Germans, amongst others, just play Chess again. Doing the kind of stuff that starts Wars and always pick a opononent that lives far, far away from them. It wouldn't even surprise me if they wanted Ukrain in the EU, just to have something to slow Russians down in case of the WWIII on their march to Berlin. Or try the Neville Chamberlain's trick.

OFF TOPIC
I'm not saying Turkey, or rather Erdogan, is any better. After all, he lives above the law. Someone (he?) manipulated 2.5mil votes in his favour (missing official stamps) in the constitutional reform referendum, then the independent commision (he?) declared these votes valid. Winning the referendum 51% to 49%, while only the pro campaing could use the tax payers money and public media for the campaing. Thinking

Maybe he needed those 2.5 mil votes, as earlier this year (before the referendum), some Turkish politicians where supposed to publicaly talk to Turks living in Germany and Netherlands, to convince them to vote in favor of the constitutional reform in Turkey in their referendum. What did the govs. of Germany and Netherlands do? They just canceled the public performances of these politicians and said nein!

Erdogan then called them Nazis, amongst other things, and both parties, the EU and Turkish opposition, felt sorry.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:54 - 16 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

barrkel wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:
Alternative plan? Convince Irish to leave the EU, make alliance with them.

The UK would need to invade Ireland again to make that happen.

Ireland lived in the shadow of the UK (or rather, England) for 800 years or so, most heavily between about 1600 to 1900, and has repeatedly tried to make continental alliances to establish counterbalance,

With Spain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Kinsale#Spanish_landing

With France: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Rebellion_of_1798#French_intervention

With Germany, and even the USA: https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/the-german-american-role-in-fight-for-irish-freedom-1.2899491

The EU has finally given Ireland a solid continental alliance that can counterbalance English influence. And it's not anti-English, per se (that's always been more of a rallying call for independence); it's a matter of sovereignty. Just like the junior partner in a coalition needs to follow the senior partner's lead, the UK is so much larger than Ireland that Ireland would be forced to follow. Qualified Majority Voting is a substantial improvement on Majority Voting in protecting minorities, and when you combine it with solidarity from other smaller nations, we can compromise on the small stuff while getting support on vital interests.

Also helps when your economy tanks and you can go cap in hand.
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