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vanderbale
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PostPosted: 17:19 - 11 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

linuxyeti wrote:
If they can eek just that little more range out for next year's model, I might well be in the market for 1, or, even if where I work put in EV charging points ..


Looks like there is a Zero DSR "power tank" edition that has up to 40% more range (extra 3.6 kWh) 204 miles city / 97 miles motorway but it weighs an extra 20kg and costs approx £3,100 more.

https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/eu/zero-ds-order-2017?model=dsr

M.C wrote:
It does look like genuinely good fun, but I spy a few cheap off the shelf bits (such as the MT-03 style headlight). Also 5 year warranty on the battery pack, so how much is a replacement after that, I thought 5 years was the expected life?


Zero state the battery can do 300,000 km / 186,411 miles with the batteries retaining 80% of their original maximum capacity. That's impressive if true.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/eu/technology (bottom has battery info)
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linuxyeti
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PostPosted: 17:26 - 11 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, but, when you say compare the price of a new R1

which is from £ 16,199.00

The price for a new Zero doesn't look at all bad.

Baring in mind, the electric bike will not require the level of service an ice bike will, plus, 'fuel' costs will also be considerably less.

As for the battery, I think in the Zero the battery life overall is supposed to be ~ 180,000 miles, I think, can't fully remember now, and even the battery pack on the Zero is 124,000 miles ..

So, properly maintained, the batteries should easily last more than 5 years, unless of course you do cover the above mileage, but, by then I'm pretty sure the rest of the bike will be 'well used' and probably only fit for scrap anyhow.. Don't see too many bikes on the market having covered > 100,000 miles !

Editied, as somebody else actually got the correct figures for the battery life !! Smile
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:32 - 11 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

vanderbale wrote:
That's impressive if true.

It sure is. I thought that was why manufacturers were starting to lease batteries out (on 5 year plans).
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vanderbale
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PostPosted: 17:54 - 11 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't find a price for buying a ZF14.4 battery.

Looking at the warranty terms it looks like the battery will be replaced if it falls below 80% capacity within the warranty period.

Quote:
Power Packs will degrade during the duration of this Limited Warranty period. Zero will only repair or replace pursuant to this Limited Warranty a Power Pack that exhibits a nominal storage capacity reduction of greater than 20% of the published nominal capacity, as measured by an authorized Zero dealer. To check the capacity of a Power Pack, an authorized Zero dealer can perform a battery management system log data extraction, which will confirm if a reduction is within expected norms.



Zero state proper use of the battery is

Quote:
“Proper use” also means charging the Power Pack, using only Zero authorized chargers, after each use and storing it in a fully charged state, or recharging it every 30 days, or keeping it on the charger when in storage or not in regular use.



http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/warranty/?my=2018&m=dsr
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:10 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

vanderbale wrote:
it looks like the battery will be replaced if it falls below 80% capacity within the warranty period.

I believe that so much that I'll affirm it twice. aye, right.

Granted, the evoke is the most credible effort I've seen to date but the price will be critical. They've floated £6000 - £7000 but whether that's before or after the £1500 taxpayer subsidy is unclear. At £7000 of my money, no thanks. At £4500 (in addition to what's already been robbed from me), I would give it serious consideration.

If there were a dealer nearby. One that's likely to be around and supporting evokes for at least 5 years.

Which there isn't, and won't be.

First world problems.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 14:41 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

That 80% will be fine if you can prove it. My bike did 100 mile when new and now only does 80 isn't going to cut the mustard.

My betting is that until batteries become cheap as chips they will be more adept at weaselling out of payment than an insurance company.

Oh and Linux, when comparing a Zero against the R1, one of the best, top of the line ICE superbikes, it looks SHIT.

HTH Wink
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skatefreak
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PostPosted: 15:12 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
comparing a Zero against the R1, one of the best, top of the line ICE superbikes


Am sure the top of the line super sports rep comes with a lot of fancy gizmo's, launch control, lean widgets yadda yadda yadda. I wasn't gonna say anything but... this seem's a little more substantial Rolling Eyes

https://www.motovationusa.com/images/product/r1-rizoma-m_m_y-Yamaha-YZF-R1-2017.jpeg
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ColinK98
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PostPosted: 15:44 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Going wrote:
My problem with electric will be with live Motorsports. The people around Brands Hatch will them have to complain about something else apart from the noise.

Residents got the Battersea Park Formula e race stopped. I don't understand people who move next to a race track or airport and then complain about noise, move somewhere else Eh?


the track i used to race at was next to a small airport.
but the locals still bitched the sound of 2 stroke karts where downing out the sound of their personal copters.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 16:38 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

skatefreak wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
comparing a Zero against the R1, one of the best, top of the line ICE superbikes


Am sure the top of the line super sports rep comes with a lot of fancy gizmo's, launch control, lean widgets yadda yadda yadda. I wasn't gonna say anything but... this seem's a little more substantial Rolling Eyes

http://www.motovationusa.com/images/product/r1-rizoma-m_m_y-Yamaha-YZF-R1-2017.jpeg

Yeah the Zero won't be a top end bike in terms of build quality, after all it's American (they don't do quality), and as mentioned I recognised some of the bits as cheap eBay jobbies.

It's the performance with the running costs that's the selling point. If a major manufacturer is able to develop a bike for a bit less, with the build quality you'd expect from a flagship model (semi snigger), that might be a game changer.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:43 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
the running costs

Total cost of ownership includes resale price.

At the moment, electromobiles enjoy the success of scarcity, so I imagine used prices today will be robust.

Buy now and sell in $CURRENT_YEAR + 5 and you'll be punting on obsolete tech, possibly of an unsupported and defunct brand, with the buyer taking on all the risk of the battery being kaput.

How exactly would you test the remaining real world range of a used electromobile?
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M.C
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PostPosted: 18:02 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
M.C wrote:
the running costs

Total cost of ownership includes resale price.

At the moment, electromobiles enjoy the success of scarcity, so I imagine used prices today will be robust.

Buy now and sell in $CURRENT_YEAR + 5 and you'll be punting on obsolete tech, possibly of an unsupported and defunct brand, with the buyer taking on all the risk of the battery being kaput.

How exactly would you test the remaining real world range of a used electromobile?

I assume someone would be able to tell you the health of the battery. Do the people who buy top-end bikes worry about resale value? I was kinda assuming if a major manufacturer gets in on the act, they'll be sold on the same PCP deals, so that'll be the manufacturers problem.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 18:23 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:

Total cost of ownership includes resale price.

At the moment, electromobiles enjoy the success of scarcity, so I imagine used prices today will be robust.

Buy now and sell in $CURRENT_YEAR + 5 and you'll be punting on obsolete tech, possibly of an unsupported and defunct brand, with the buyer taking on all the risk of the battery being kaput.

How exactly would you test the remaining real world range of a used electromobile?

I assume someone would be able to tell you the health of the battery. Do the people who buy top-end bikes worry about resale value? I was kinda assuming if a major manufacturer gets in on the act, they'll be sold on the same PCP deals, so that'll be the manufacturers problem.


We are talking second hand here. What value is a zero second hand, I have no idea. If I bought an R1 new, I have a pretty good idea what it will be worth in 3/5/10 years so while I may not sit and work that out I am subconsciously including that in any financial decision.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:31 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
I assume someone would be able to tell you the health of the battery.

Why? Who? A dealer? Laughing


M.C wrote:
I was kinda assuming if a major manufacturer gets in on the act, they'll be sold on the same PCP deals, so that'll be the manufacturers problem.

BMW do a leccy scootay, so let's see.

https://www.bmw-motorrad.co.uk/en/models/urban_mobility/cevolution.html

OTR £11,075.00
Notional value after 3 years and no more than 15,000 miles: £5,242.95

But at 9.9% APR they'll rinse you for... wow, £8005 over 3 years before you get the option to pay them another £5243, or walk away.

That's at least 54p per mile (if you use every inch of your 15,000 allowance), before any running costs.

Cheap motoring?
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M.C
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PostPosted: 20:43 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
M.C wrote:
I assume someone would be able to tell you the health of the battery.

Why? Who? A dealer? Laughing

So they'll be no diagnostic software for these? 30 seconds googling suggests they have OBDII connectors and apps and shit.

Anyway when did I become the champion for electric bikes? Eh? I very much doubt people spending 15 grand on a bike walk into the showroom with 15 grand, the same way the roads aren't full of nearly new cars that have been bought outright. They're getting gouged now and seem happy to come back for more.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 09:50 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:

Why? Who? A dealer? Laughing

So they'll be no diagnostic software for these? 30 seconds googling suggests they have OBDII connectors and apps and shit.


Do you know how they test lead acid batteries, they short them out with this. It's a brutal bit of kit.

https://dccf75d8gej24.cloudfront.net/images/products/01/010910103/9F50C2EF-123E-4F33-8CBB-96CB16015FA2-huge.jpg

You can't test a lead acid battery unless it is loaded up. Even testing the electrolyte is very hit and miss (If you can even open them nowadays).

I have no idea how they would test Lithium batteries but it certainly isn't as easy as just connecting a diagnostic tester across them.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:36 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
So they'll be no diagnostic software for these?

There might be, but why would a dealer of those bikes buy something that can only be used to cost them money?

Nobody is going to help you make your case. How would you do it?
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 11:44 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
I have no idea how they would test Lithium batteries but it certainly isn't as easy as just connecting a diagnostic tester across them.


Charge/Discharge cycles, with a known/measured load on the discharge. There will be a set tolerance for how long it can sustain the load before the BMC shuts it down. It takes time, and will probably be a manufacturer specific (expensive) unit, unless inter-operability magically happens.

Some dealers will probably be reluctant to take that time, in the same way some don't want to actually look at the bike and guess at cheap fixes to get your complaining arse out of the door.
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skatefreak
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PostPosted: 12:23 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as my experience goes with unprotected lipos in the rc world, discharge & charge will give you capacity pretty accurately only it will take quite a while, measuring voltage drop under load can give you a ballpark estimate however a cell can get 'weak' without loosing to much capacity so although damaged, it's still perfectly fine to use at lower draws.

If treated well I see no reason the batteries 'shouldnt' last 5 years over a reasonable distance, computer control/limits on draw/capacity should be able to do this... batteries though I suspect will be seen more as a consumable, such as pistons in little 2 strokes (although a bit more expedite)...
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:51 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, the batteries should last and most of them will. Just like most ICEs won't have a problem. The issue is what support is available when things do go wrong.

Given that even Honda main dealers cheerfully tell customers to go flux themselves, I wouldn't put any trust in evoke (a subsidiary of Pong-Eey Fish Concerns) or any of the other novelty brands to back their e-trinkets.
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skatefreak
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PostPosted: 12:53 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take a gamble with a second hand battery pack off eBay as you would with another engine I guess...?
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M.C
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PostPosted: 17:07 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:

Do you know how they test old shit [FTFY], they short them out with this. It's a brutal bit of kit.

https://dccf75d8gej24.cloudfront.net/images/products/01/010910103/9F50C2EF-123E-4F33-8CBB-96CB16015FA2-huge.jpg

You can't test a lead acid battery unless it is loaded up. Even testing the electrolyte is very hit and miss (If you can even open them nowadays).

I have no idea how they would test Lithium batteries but it certainly isn't as easy as just connecting a diagnostic tester across them.

And yet they manage to in other applications.

Rogerborg wrote:
M.C wrote:
So they'll be no diagnostic software for these?

There might be, but why would a dealer of those bikes buy something that can only be used to cost them money?

Nobody is going to help you make your case. How would you do it?

Your unfounded assumptions are better than mine? Doesn't someone on here actually own a Zero?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:46 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Your unfounded assumptions are better than mine?

I'm simply assuming that nobody else will give a fvck about helping you out.

If you're assuming otherwise, I'd like to see your working.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 19:57 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Polarbear wrote:

Do you know how they test old shit [FTFY], they short them out with this. It's a brutal bit of kit.

https://dccf75d8gej24.cloudfront.net/images/products/01/010910103/9F50C2EF-123E-4F33-8CBB-96CB16015FA2-huge.jpg

You can't test a lead acid battery unless it is loaded up. Even testing the electrolyte is very hit and miss (If you can even open them nowadays).

I have no idea how they would test Lithium batteries but it certainly isn't as easy as just connecting a diagnostic tester across them.

And yet they manage to in other applications.


Manage to what? test lead acid, test lithium? What applications? I would love to see some sort of app or software that can test the condition of a leisure battery without doing cycles, charging and discharging rates, I could make a fortune in the boat and camper industries.

Even my tracer battery controller on my boat that control's the charge rate from my solar panels and monitors the battery state can't tell me it's actual condition, only it's voltage and current flow. My boats batteries are on their last legs, they just about last overnight with me using an LED telly and LED lights yet they can still charge up to 14V which leads the controller to say they are fine.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 23:12 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
M.C wrote:
Your unfounded assumptions are better than mine?

I'm simply assuming that nobody else will give a fvck about helping you out.

If you're assuming otherwise, I'd like to see your working.

I remember being told with OBD that you'd have to take it to a dealer everytime and be gouged. You're assuming they'll be no solution, I'm looking at what Zero already offer on the user side: https://www.zeromotorcycles.com/app/help/ios/

Polarbear wrote:
Manage to what? test lead acid, test lithium? What applications? I would love to see some sort of app or software that can test the condition of a leisure battery without doing cycles, charging and discharging rates, I could make a fortune in the boat and camper industries.

Even my tracer battery controller on my boat that control's the charge rate from my solar panels and monitors the battery state can't tell me it's actual condition, only it's voltage and current flow. My boats batteries are on their last legs, they just about last overnight with me using an LED telly and LED lights yet they can still charge up to 14V which leads the controller to say they are fine.

And yet there are plenty of products on the market claiming to test and give info' on the battery health. They must all be made by Adam Aarons Inc.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 23:35 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
And yet there are plenty of products on the market claiming to test and give info' on the battery health.


The (typically) hold a log of the last few charge/discharge cycles, and compare that to a curve pre-set into the unit. Pretty trivial stuff for even basic microprocessors. It still takes time, and the cheaper the processor and associated RAM and storage, the less data points it will sample.
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