Resend my activation email : Register : Log in 
BCF: Bike Chat Forums


Bitcoins

Reply to topic
Bike Chat Forums Index -> The Geek Zone Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 32, 33, 34 ... 45, 46, 47  Next
View previous topic : View next topic  
Author Message

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 15:46 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

For clarification:

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTI188SWAAAuRHF.jpg

Those figures are not correct and are not even speculative.
____________________
struan80 - I'll go first - satisfied tick 1
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 16:02 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yahbut, if you assume everybody else stops mining. Kodak Spotlite can't be held responsible for what those greedy selfish churls do.

Details aside[*], do you reckon that they're lying by a factor of three, or that they're wrong that BTC will collapse in value by 2/3rds?


[*] If you don't want to leave them aside, be assured that I will keep asking you what the real numbers are.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 16:11 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Yahbut, if you assume everybody else stops mining. Kodak Spotlite can't be held responsible for what those greedy selfish churls do.

Details aside[*], do you reckon that they're lying by a factor of three, or that they're wrong that BTC will collapse in value by 2/3rds?


[*] If you don't want to leave them aside, be assured that I will keep asking you what the real numbers are.


Nobody can accurately predict the price of Bitcoin.

People that give wild speculative predictions of crashes and booms, do so with little substance behind their claims.

Nobody knows any real numbers as you cant accurately calculate them.
____________________
struan80 - I'll go first - satisfied tick 1
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Lord Percy
World Chat Champion



Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 16:25 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
If you know anything about bitcoin mining Wink you would know it becomes more difficult only if more processing power is added to the network. Nothing to do with time.

Well network difficulty doesn't increase in fractions of time, but it does over time.

I don't see why you are trying to prove my point wrong with semantics.

It increases around 15% per month, looking at recent changes, but that's not set in stone by a any stretch of the imagination.


Indeed, but you did say returns decrease over time, which is wrong. Stop speculating Wink

It'll be interesting to see how things go when all the bitcoin farms in China shut down after the government puts a stop to the favourable energy price they've been getting.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 16:39 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Indeed, but you did say returns decrease over time, which is wrong. Stop speculating Wink


Indeed I did and it's correct.

Buy a miner and watch your returns drop each month.
Difficulty increases ensure this happens.
____________________
struan80 - I'll go first - satisfied tick 1
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 16:45 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
Buy a miner and watch your returns drop each month.

Of BTCs.

But shouldn't the dollah value stay constant or rise?

I thought you were gambling on that.

Kodak / Spotlite are gambling against it.

Fite.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 16:49 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Pjay wrote:
Buy a miner and watch your returns drop each month.

Of BTCs.

But shouldn't the dollah value stay constant or rise?

I thought you were gambling on that.

Kodak / Spotlite are gambling against it.

Fite.


Well no, the line is profitability, the more BTC goes up in value, the more hashrate is added to the network, thus decreasing profits.

If you have a single miner, or a mining contract you will find your returns lower over time. in BTC and in dollar values, regardless if BTC raises or lowers in value. The two are not linked directly, but hashrate is affected by the price.
____________________
struan80 - I'll go first - satisfied tick 1
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 16:58 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read this, it makes it should help:
https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-mining-profitable-beginners-explanation/
____________________
struan80 - I'll go first - satisfied tick 1
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

asta1
Scooby Slapper



Joined: 03 Dec 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 19:42 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:


I've read that. Seems to me Kodak/Spotlite can make those claims based on 2 main factors.

1.) No one knows how much the difficulty of mining will increase. In the past it has increased by the 15% you state, but as all investors know "Past performane is no guarantee of future gains". Therefore, based exclusively on the difficulty rating and profitability as of 11/01/2018, they are being entirely truthful. They're not obligated to speculate on future market trends, and in this case it isn't beneficial to do so, so they won't. Is this honest? No. Is it moral? Doubtful. Is it technically correct and legal? Certainly.

2.) People involved in Bitcoin assume Bitcoin will go up. Kodak/Spotlite have based their calcultaions on a flat rate of $14,000/1BTC. Therefore, if Bitcoin increases 15%/month, which again, based on past performance, is perfectly possible, then whilst you will earn fewer BTC as a function of the increasing network hash rate, by converting them back to real $ every month at an increasing pricepoint, you can still maintain the same profit margin (all costs being paid in $ as well.)

So really, the question is this: Which is the two speculations will be more right?

If hash rate increases quicker than BTC valuation, then profitability/month goes down. If BTC grows at a higher rate than the hash rate, profitability goes up.

It's a gamble, but as it isn't Kodak/Spotlites gamble, or indeed their capital, do they give a fuck? Probably not.

I should also state that the only reason that historically mining gains have declined irrespective of bitcoin price fluctuations is because when it goes up, hype and potential profit calculations based on current market conditions like the ones presented by Kodak/Spotlite draws more miners into the game. It's reasonable to expect that this status quo will be maintained in the future, but again,this is just a third type of speculation.

Miners are not obligated to join the network if price goes up, and profitability is dictated exclusively by hash rate, not BTC value, so its conceivable that there will come a time when hash rate increases slower than price point (due to external factors such as, countries banning mining and technological limits being approached as people now make dedicated mining rigs which are plateuing in performance vs the increases seen with the CPU-GPU-Dedicated system trend).

At this point, profitability will be driven more by BTC value variation than by increasing hash rate, and potential profitability for a miner could go up over a given time period, not down
____________________
CBT Acquired: 09/07/2015
A2 Licence Passed: 12/02/16
Current Bike: Yamaha MT-07 bought 02/07/16
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 20:08 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

asta1 wrote:
profitability will be driven more by BTC value variation

Profitability is entirely dependent on greater fools paying you more than you paid a lesser fool.

Everything else is flim-flam and rope-a-dope.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 20:41 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

asta1 wrote:
Pjay wrote:


I've read that. Seems to me Kodak/Spotlite can make those claims based on 2 main factors.

1.) No one knows how much the difficulty of mining will increase. In the past it has increased by the 15% you state, but as all investors know "Past performane is no guarantee of future gains". Therefore, based exclusively on the difficulty rating and profitability as of 11/01/2018, they are being entirely truthful. They're not obligated to speculate on future market trends, and in this case it isn't beneficial to do so, so they won't. Is this honest? No. Is it moral? Doubtful. Is it technically correct and legal? Certainly.

2.) People involved in Bitcoin assume Bitcoin will go up. Kodak/Spotlite have based their calcultaions on a flat rate of $14,000/1BTC. Therefore, if Bitcoin increases 15%/month, which again, based on past performance, is perfectly possible, then whilst you will earn fewer BTC as a function of the increasing network hash rate, by converting them back to real $ every month at an increasing pricepoint, you can still maintain the same profit margin (all costs being paid in $ as well.)

So really, the question is this: Which is the two speculations will be more right?

If hash rate increases quicker than BTC valuation, then profitability/month goes down. If BTC grows at a higher rate than the hash rate, profitability goes up.

It's a gamble, but as it isn't Kodak/Spotlites gamble, or indeed their capital, do they give a fuck? Probably not.

I should also state that the only reason that historically mining gains have declined irrespective of bitcoin price fluctuations is because when it goes up, hype and potential profit calculations based on current market conditions like the ones presented by Kodak/Spotlite draws more miners into the game. It's reasonable to expect that this status quo will be maintained in the future, but again,this is just a third type of speculation.

Miners are not obligated to join the network if price goes up, and profitability is dictated exclusively by hash rate, not BTC value, so its conceivable that there will come a time when hash rate increases slower than price point (due to external factors such as, countries banning mining and technological limits being approached as people now make dedicated mining rigs which are plateuing in performance vs the increases seen with the CPU-GPU-Dedicated system trend).

At this point, profitability will be driven more by BTC value variation than by increasing hash rate, and potential profitability for a miner could go up over a given time period, not down


At no point since BTC have been mined has an older mining rig ever become more profitable, especially one that is 18 months old. Usually a mining rig wont even pay its electricity costs after 2 years, let alone make more money than it started off making. There is no speculating that the returns of mining will increase over time, it has never happened and never will.

FYI, BTC mining isn't done with a CPU or GPU on a PC, they are done with ASIC miners, that are chips specifically built to make bitcoin blocks and have no other use. There are no CPU/GPU miners battling anything out and nothing is getting to a plateau. ASIC miners are being produced to mine faster and faster, as they always have done. When a new one comes out, it will make the old ones obsolete, just as they always have and always will. The new dragonmint miners coming out in march/april will ensure that all current profitable miners (s9's) will decrease in profitability as they can mine both cheaper and faster.
Bitmain will surely counter soon enough with their own new miner that will be faster and more efficient later in the year or early 2019. All this ensures the Kodak miners will be making less than fuck all in 2020.

But sure, go take a punt on one and speculate along with them that you'll make money.

You might, but you wont be making what they are offering even after 6 months and you sure as hell wont be after 24. This is just based on past performances and moores law of course. So yes I am speculating that the returns will drop, but in the same sense I am speculating that the sun will rise in the morning.
____________________
struan80 - I'll go first - satisfied tick 1
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

asta1
Scooby Slapper



Joined: 03 Dec 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:11 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth, I don't for a minute believe that the Kodak equipment will return what they suggest, I'm merely saying that it is theoretically possible which is all Kodak needs to make the claim.

Also, mining kit is plateauing. Originally in the very early days, normal esktops were used, with the CPU doing the heavy lifting. It worked fine and when the hash rate was low and you got 50 coins/block it was worthwhile.

Then some clever person realised that high end GPUs were more efficient at mining than CPU by several orders of magnitude. Immediately ever miner switched to GPUs and the old CPU iners were immediately unprofitable as the hash rate grew and the return per block dropped.

A couple years later (not actually that long ago), someone realised that specialised ASIC chips could be produced specifically for mining. THese were 300-fold faster and more energy efficient and so GPU based minng became obsolete as hash rate increased.

However, this trend is now tailing off. The major jumps in performance have not been improvements to microprocessors on a chip (which would be subject to Moore's Law), it's been paradigm shifts in chip architecture. However, now we are no longer adapting existing chips bur instead making them specifically for purpose, the ASIC chips are heavily optimised for the job. As such it is unlikely that an entirely new class of architecture will surpass it anytime soon. Therefore current advancements are now based on optimising ASIC. This is effective, as you've stated, but it's not realising the 100+-fold jumps in efficiency of moving from a GPU to ASIC in the first place. We've moved into incremental improvement which is subject to Moores law and should roughly double performance every 2 years (actually its a fair bit quicker than this as it's still an emerging field, but we're not talking more than a 10-fold improvement/year). Hash rate will therefore increase, but hash rate now is driven more by number of chips than performance of individual chips, and so it will increase more slowly and is more subject to external factors such as the potential chinese legislation as well as market demand and pricepoint for bitcoin which will draw in more miners if it increases.

THat also leads to a situations which has never before happened in Crypto: BTC valuation is high, incremenatl chip performance is tailing off and there is a growing possibility that crypto mining will be legislated or banned in some markets (China especially and China leads the world in crypto mining).

In this unique situation there is significant potential for hash rates to stall or even reduce for the first time in history (if China bans it, we'll see an overnight drop in hash rate of over 50% as half the miners will stop, leading to half the processing power working on the problem).

So that's why it is not set in stone that the kodak miners, or any other, will become obsolete. It's not a case of alwayshave=always will.

That said, I still think that Kodak is selling a big heap of steaming shit, I'm just mking the point that nothing is set in stone, and so Kodaks claims, whilst questionable, are not categorically untrue.
____________________
CBT Acquired: 09/07/2015
A2 Licence Passed: 12/02/16
Current Bike: Yamaha MT-07 bought 02/07/16
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:21 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

asta1 wrote:
However, this trend is now tailing off.


No it's not.

Bitmain released the S7 ASIC in mid 2015, by mid 2017 it had become obsolete. What proof is there that S9's wont have a 2 year shelf life?
Everything suggests they wont be profitable once the new generation become widespread.

Kodak suggesting that the returns will remain static over 24 months is not speculation, it's downright misleading bullshit.

Using fluctuations in prices as smoke screen to advertise bullshit returns wouldn't wash when thousands of customers are taking Kodak to court over those figures claimed.

The majority of people that buy those miners will be getting close to £0 after 24 months, I'm pretty sure they wont be so accepting of the promises Kodak are selling them, as you are.
____________________
struan80 - I'll go first - satisfied tick 1
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

asta1
Scooby Slapper



Joined: 03 Dec 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:47 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
asta1 wrote:
However, this trend is now tailing off.


No it's not.


Yes, it is. See attachment. Bearing in mind that the new S9(released 2017) is roughly 2.5 fold better than the S7(released 2015) (13.5TH/s vs 4.73TH/s and 0.098W/GH vs 0.25W/GH)

Reference: https://www.bitcoinmining.com/bitmain-antminer-s9-review-bitcoin-mining/

that's roughly in line with moores law - 2 fold improvment per 2 years . Now compare that rate of improvement with the mid-2010 shift from CPU to GPU. That was a 100-fold improvment in a couple weeks. That, however you look at it, is a tailing off of incremental improvement.

When incremental improvemnt tails off, shelf life of components increases. It's just a fact.

But really, all of this is completely irrelevant to Kodaks statement. It's based purely on the assumption that hash rate will increase (which it probably will, but as discussed is not guaranteed). That's a case of buyer beware, not deception. Kodak are (IMO) selling bullshit, but there is sufficient doubt, reasonable doubt as it were, in the figures that they'll get away with it.

The miners will (most likely) see their returns tending towards 0, but Kodak won't care, they'll be laughing all the way to the bank, and on the admittedly very small chance that the stars align and factors come into place to limit hash rate increase, then they'll be laughing even more.
____________________
CBT Acquired: 09/07/2015
A2 Licence Passed: 12/02/16
Current Bike: Yamaha MT-07 bought 02/07/16
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:57 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

asta1 wrote:
That's roughly in line with moores law - 2 fold improvment per 2 years . Now compare that rate of improvement with the mid-2010 shift from CPU to GPU. That was a 100-fold improvment in a couple weeks. That, however you look at it, is a tailing off of incremental improvement.

When incremental improvemnt tails off, shelf life of components increases. It's just a fact.


I can see what you're getting at, but the fact remains that mining equipment has pretty much a 2 year use life before it becomes obsolete.
It has been this way since the start of mining and it will continue to be the case. There has been incremental increases from Bitmain on the S9, but there is a new generation coming that will ensure the S9 will be obsolete next year, regardless of these incremental improvements.

I'm merely pointing out Kodak are in for a shitstorm in about 18 months time when all of their customers will be clutching their contracts and promises.
____________________
struan80 - I'll go first - satisfied tick 1
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

asta1
Scooby Slapper



Joined: 03 Dec 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 22:06 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:


I can see what you're getting at, but the fact remains that mining equipment has pretty much a 2 year use life before it becomes obsolete.

I'm merely pointing out Kodak are in for a shitstorm in about 18 months time when all of their customers will be clutching their contracts and promises.


Fair enough. I expect that'll continue to be broadly the case, although it wldn't necessarily surprise me if use life starts to stretch to 3-5 years in the not too distant.

Anyway, guess I should draw your attention to the small print at the bottom of the Kodak conract pic posted:

"All payout ratio is a functon of Bitcoin price and is not guaranteed by Spotlite".

I expect there are many clauses to clarify that the calculations are based on current performances and market conditions as well.

People can B'aww all they like, they'll get nothing from Kodak. Oh, and as for the bad PR, meh, Crypto is hardly a core business activity for Kodak, so few fucks will be given.

I'm almost impressed with the exec who came up with it really. Low quality bait pitched to get hyped up crypto noobs into mining by endorsement of a 'mainstream' company. Cash in on their money, watch the shareprice climb through association with the crypto bubble and the associated PR and leverage their currently depreciating and worthless energy generating assets to drive value. Chap deserves a raise I reckon.
____________________
CBT Acquired: 09/07/2015
A2 Licence Passed: 12/02/16
Current Bike: Yamaha MT-07 bought 02/07/16
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

asta1
Scooby Slapper



Joined: 03 Dec 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 02:00 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh Kodak.

You beautiful bastard. Shit company that hasn't made a profit in 10 years, announces tenuous crypto link, triples share price in a week. Laughing Just soo 90's.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/quote/KODK?ltr=1

Well, I've certainly had my fun out of this one. In at 4.30p at Tuesday lunchtime, sold end of trading today at 9.00. How I laughed. Shame I missed the peak really.

In less exciting news, Bitcoin continues its tumble.
____________________
CBT Acquired: 09/07/2015
A2 Licence Passed: 12/02/16
Current Bike: Yamaha MT-07 bought 02/07/16
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Lord Percy
World Chat Champion



Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 03:17 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:


Buy a miner and watch your returns drop each month.
Difficulty increases ensure this happens.


Pjay wrote:


Well no, the line is profitability, the more BTC goes up in value, the more hashrate is added to the network, thus decreasing profits.

If you have a single miner, or a mining contract you will find your returns lower over time. in BTC and in dollar values, regardless if BTC raises or lowers in value. The two are not linked directly, but hashrate is affected by the price.


No this is completely wrong. I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt because it's so obvious but now I think you really don't understand how or why the difficulty of mining bitcoin increases.

It's written all over every 'mining for noobs' article, including the one you posted, where it says this:

Quote:
Bitcoin Difficulty: Since the Bitcoin network is designed to produce a constant amount of Bitcoins every 10 minutes, the difficulty of solving the mathematical problems has to increase in order to adjust to the network’s Hash Rate increase. Basically this means that the more miners that join, the harder it gets to actually mine Bitcoins.



I mean just read it. The system is designed to supply a constant amount of bitcoins every 10 minutes, no matter how many people are digging away. That means all would takes a small chunk of hardcore miners to switch off their machines, then the difficulty rating decreases and profits for the remaining miners will rise.

There is absolutely no guarantee of decreased bitcoin earnings if someone gets into the mining game. The only reason it's on a decreasing trend right now is because so many others are joining the rush at the same time.

I have no idea how or why you think "hashrate is affected by price". What does that even mean? Hashrate is affected by available processing power and nothing else.


Also:

asta1 wrote:
Moore's Law

Pjay wrote:
Moore's Law


No, Moore's law started to die out about 5 years ago. Improvements to bitcoin mining equipment are nothing to do with Moore's Law, it's just bog standard design improvement in terms of hardware layout, most likely relating to energy efficiency.

In theory the CCP could turn Taihu Light into a bitcoin farm and ruin the fun for everyone. They don't though because it would likely cost a fortune in electricity bills (and the payment would be in arbitrary online play coins).
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

The Artist
Super Spammer



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Karma :

PostPosted: 03:33 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:

It's written all over every 'mining for noobs' article, including the one you posted, where it says this:

Quote:
Bitcoin Difficulty: Since the Bitcoin network is designed to produce a constant amount of Bitcoins every 10 minutes, the difficulty of solving the mathematical problems has to increase in order to adjust to the network’s Hash Rate increase. Basically this means that the more miners that join, the harder it gets to actually mine Bitcoins.



I mean just read it. The system is designed to supply a constant amount of bitcoins every 10 minutes, no matter how many people are digging away. That means all would takes a small chunk of hardcore miners to switch off their machines, then the difficulty rating decreases and profits for the remaining miners will rise.

There is absolutely no guarantee of decreased bitcoin earnings if someone gets into the mining game. The only reason it's on a decreasing trend right now is because so many others are joining the rush at the same time.



The point you are missing is that as the difficulty changes, people with mining equipment can decide whether it is profitable to mine or not. It is a self balancing system.

To put it simply, if your miner can generate 1btc in a day, but costs £10k a day to operate and the price is £8k then you would not operate your miner. You turn it off so the difficulty now goes down and your miner can generate 2btc a day, then you turn it on because you can make a profit. The link is indirect but it works that way.

What this does is balance the system to keep it profitable but not by a huge amount and of course, the latest most powerful ASICS profit more hence the current centralisation of mining.

Lord Percy wrote:


In theory the CCP could turn Taihu Light into a bitcoin farm and ruin the fun for everyone. They don't though because it would likely cost a fortune in electricity bills (and the payment would be in arbitrary online play coins).


Maybe but probably not. ASIC's are designed unlike any other computers to solve Bitcoins algorithms. Supercomputers are made to do other calculations. It would be interesting to see what hashrate it would get but it wouldn't surprise me if it was nothing special.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

asta1
Scooby Slapper



Joined: 03 Dec 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 03:40 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:


asta1 wrote:
Moore's Law

Pjay wrote:
Moore's Law


No, Moore's law started to die out about 5 years ago. Improvements to bitcoin mining equipment are nothing to do with Moore's Law, it's just bog standard design improvement in terms of hardware layout, most likely relating to energy efficiency.


Moore's Law is certainly getting shaky as we approach theoretical limits of current chip architecture, and the rate of improvement has been levelling off since about 2010, but I wouldn't say it's completely dead as an observation as yet.

As for Cryptomining, actually, whilst hardware design is the main driver behind past improvements (GPU to ASIC for example), now that the specialised ASIC format is established, the limiting factor is once again partially raw processing power and partially energy efficiency. Both of these do still loosely correlate with Moore's Law of doubling power every 18months.

Worth noting that the 'next big thing' in ASIC design is the advent of more powerful and energy efficient 10nm and 7nm chips over curent 16 and 14nm ones. This is directly related to Moores' theories about number of transistors in a given SA.
____________________
CBT Acquired: 09/07/2015
A2 Licence Passed: 12/02/16
Current Bike: Yamaha MT-07 bought 02/07/16
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 09:53 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Artist wrote:
if your miner can generate 1btc in a day, but costs £10k a day to operate

Including amortisation on the rapidly depreciating electronical pick axe? That costs you whether you use it or not?

I doubt that e-miners are any more rational than meatspace ones. Better to be toiling away looking for that big strike rather than admitting that you made a horrendous mistake buying the tools in the first place.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 10:48 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
No this is completely wrong.

You need to stop responding to me, you obviously have some mental issues.
____________________
struan80 - I'll go first - satisfied tick 1
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Lord Percy
World Chat Champion



Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 11:40 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Artist wrote:

Maybe but probably not. ASIC's are designed unlike any other computers to solve Bitcoins algorithms. Supercomputers are made to do other calculations. It would be interesting to see what hashrate it would get but it wouldn't surprise me if it was nothing special.


'Hashrate' is bitcoin jargon for processing power. It means exacty the same thing. Mining setups are just a box with a load processors, a big fan and a BIOS that tells it that its one and only purpose is to do cryptography.

Supercomputers are designed to supercompute. The largest has over 10 million CPU cores. If it was told its one and only purpose was to do cryptography, it would dwarf all the other contenders and definitely spoil the fun.

Pjay wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
No this is completely wrong.

You need to stop responding to me, you obviously have some mental issues.


Fantastic response, so I'm right and you don't understand at all how or why the difficulty rating increases when processing power is added to the blockchain network.

Cognitive dissonance or sudden-wealth-induced superiority complex. Take your pick, you're suffering from one or the other.

Thumbs Up
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 11:51 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Fantastic response, so I'm right and you don't understand at all how or why the difficulty rating increases when processing power is added to the blockchain network.

Cognitive dissonance or sudden-wealth-induced superiority complex. Take your pick, you're suffering from one or the other.

Thumbs Up

No, you're wrong.
The Artist tried to explain it, but yet again you display the inability to grasp simple concepts.

The more BTC goes up, the more hashrate is added to the network.
The hashrate goes down with difficulty changes.
Hash rate is affected by the price.
Arguing these facts is pointless, so stop trying to.

You still seem to think that it's all some centrally controlled system, whereas it isn't, the price, the hashrate and the difficulty are all separate things that are not hard linked to each other, but they affect each other.

Please stop trying to tell me about mining, I've done it for years, I know why I turned on and off my rigs.
____________________
struan80 - I'll go first - satisfied tick 1
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 12:00 - 13 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Supercomputers are designed to supercompute. The largest has over 10 million CPU cores. If it was told its one and only purpose was to do cryptography, it would dwarf all the other contenders and definitely spoil the fun.

I dont think you realise the efficiency of asics here.
To run a 10 million core CPU long enough to mine a block, you'd be paying many times the cost of the reward in electricity costs.

If you could mine with cpu cores, people would be, you cant.
____________________
struan80 - I'll go first - satisfied tick 1
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Bike Chat Forums Index -> The Geek Zone All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 32, 33, 34 ... 45, 46, 47  Next
Page 33 of 47

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum

Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
 

Debug Mode: ON - Server: discovery (www) - Page Generation Time: 2.69 Sec - Server Load: 1.53 - MySQL Queries: 17 - CDN Objects: 41 - Page Size: 164.41 Kb