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I need some help engineering the philosophy of mathematics.

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 Topic moved: from The Workshop to The Geek Zone by stinkwheel (18 Aug 2015 - 08:47)
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struan80
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PostPosted: 15:19 - 18 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

lihp wrote:
So you're just posting absolute nonsense then?


Possibly so. I can't still determine that myself with this particular thought at that moment.

I am not cutting myself up about this at all any more, I have better things to cut myself up about, just found it strange that I would suddenly think this nonsense as you put it.

Came from nowhere and a result of nil drugs. If i had been taking any drugs prescribed or otherwise I would have an explanation then.
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baldy
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PostPosted: 15:47 - 18 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you by any chance watch that film called Zero Theorum recently?
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someotherguy
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PostPosted: 16:20 - 18 Aug 2015    Post subject: Re: I need some help engineering the philosophy of mathemati Reply with quote

lihp wrote:
struan80 wrote:

∞ = 0 = (infinity tends to zero).

By its nature, infinity tends towards infinity.

You cannot simply apply any natural number to infinity, and expect it to work as it does not.

You basic knowledge of complex numbers is lacking.


Exactly this.
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spikenipple
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PostPosted: 16:52 - 18 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the cannabis oil you're trying to get hold of for your son only has CBD in it? Mr. Green
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struan80
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PostPosted: 17:04 - 18 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spikenipple wrote:
I thought the cannabis oil you're trying to get hold of for your son only has CBD in it? Mr. Green


Laughing I can see this too and it makes me laugh.

I could now easily get cannabis oil for my son, i'm on a mission to get it legally. My son and me, for that matter, are totally illegal drug free until Epidiolex (medical cannabis) trials are carried out as the current system is advocating. It is wrong but we will do it by the book. we will be gunea pig.

I am free of any drugs at the moment but should probably be on some prescribed ones :-/

The two matters with my son and my unusual thought yesterday are entirely separate, I really hope they are. They probably aren't in my mind.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 17:39 - 18 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:
The Geek Zone needs renaming to The Padded Cell


I'd modify that theory very slightly to only have the cell minus padding.
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calyx
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PostPosted: 20:28 - 18 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a slightly seasoned engineer I am kinda ashamed of these new-age so called engineers' maths knowledge. Anyway here it goes:

The difference:
0 has boundaries. infinity should not have boundaries. infinity with boundaries is a function or "represented as a function of something". which we call "limit". i.e lim (a->0) 1/a = infinity.
as you see your infinite function is not a dot. it is a moving dot.
while your infinity is moving, zero is sitting there doing nothing. either getting closer or further to infinity without raising a finger.
With this logic zero is infinity relative to the infinity function. However maths is relative to zero. If you need further explanation go back to the uni.
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struan80
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PostPosted: 20:54 - 18 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

baldy wrote:
Did you by any chance watch that film called Zero Theorum recently?


I don't remember seeing it but I want to watch it now Smile
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struan80
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PostPosted: 21:08 - 18 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

calyx wrote:
As a slightly seasoned engineer I am kinda ashamed of these new-age so called engineers' maths knowledge. Anyway here it goes:

The difference:
0 has boundaries. infinity should not have boundaries. infinity with boundaries is a function or "represented as a function of something". which we call "limit". i.e lim (a->0) 1/a = infinity.
as you see your infinite function is not a dot. it is a moving dot.
while your infinity is moving, zero is sitting there doing nothing. either getting closer or further to infinity without raising a finger.
With this logic zero is infinity relative to the infinity function. However maths is relative to zero. If you need further explanation go back to the uni.


Thankyou, I am also ashamed. I could have spent time making myself look more mathematically proficient to you. As I stated previously I was thinking impartially based on limited knowledge. I did not want to do anything to influence a random thought so I typed what I thought at that point with the hope that you all could do the work for me in proving me wrong. Which no one yet has. I know it is me that would have to prove myself. Obviously not a short task

I will possibly analyse this later, put it to bed for now. It was only a random thought from nowhere. A question. Wish I had the time or motivation to go back to uni and learn for a career.

New age engineer, me? no chance I like big hammer. Usually does the trick Wink
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 03:06 - 19 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

struan80 wrote:
Teflon-Mike wrote:
Trouble with maths is it was invented by Greeks and never translated.


Bingo!


No, Maths. Bingo uses numbers, but I think it was invented by the Roman Catholic Church, a few centuries later... along with the Spanish Inquisition and jumble-sales.
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someotherguy
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PostPosted: 09:15 - 19 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

struan80 wrote:
...with the hope that you all could do the work for me in proving me wrong. Which no one yet has.


But the burden of proof is on you, not us.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam.
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struan80
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PostPosted: 14:49 - 23 Aug 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is my problem I am trying to solve here.

Who is the edjit and who talks nonsense on this thread? It s arguable?

For the non 'new age' engineer, who did in fact plagiarise with his maths. Who is the better engineer? Arguable.

This why I posted in workshop and not geek zone.

https://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy224/struan80/20150823_140507_zps5vn1wjle.jpg

https://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy224/struan80/Infinate%20purple%20ribbon_zpsrmroxsjs.jpg
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Old Thread Alert!

There is a gap of 2 years, 142 days between these two posts...

struan80
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PostPosted: 03:02 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

If infinity can include everything then it is plausible that it sure can equal zero. I don't need 'basic' complex theory to decipher that.... Did the universe not commence from a point infinitaly small.

Where's John Queen when you need him

Sorry for dragging another old thread up, just this one explains my mental state at any given moment
.
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Holdawayt
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PostPosted: 10:02 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd absolutely hate to be in your head for an hour let alone a day. Switch off.
Getting wound up about questions that have no simple answer is almost akin to self torture. You're purposely winding yourself up with a near impossible task.

Just to add, when people start questioning reality and they use phrases like "It's both possible and impossible" etc... you're on the brink of losing your mind. You need to find an escape before this gets on top of you, especially considering your recent loss. Get your head in the right place mate.
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struan80
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PostPosted: 11:03 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 15:41 - 12 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

orac wrote:
maybe you should stop looking for the answer in maths, and look for it physics, theoretical physics.


No it's a pure maths problem.

struan80 wrote:


Please can you show me the equation that proves infinity does not equal zero then I will admit defeat.


You can do it with set theory. It also gives an interesting result which you might like.

Set theory puts things into sets and compares them with other sets. For example you could have a set "S" of numbers like S={1,4,5,3,6,4}.

For the current discussion, start with the set of everything and label it ∞.

Then we can say ∞ = {the universe}

Now another definition in set theory is the empty set, which is labelled ∅.

And we say ∅ = {}

That is, it's a set with absolutely nothing in it.

So now by simple comparison you can see the following:

{} ≠ {the universe}

This is quite obvious. Therefore:

∅ ≠ ∞

or in layman's terms:

0 ≠ ∞

So there's your proof.

The interesting thing is this: Set theory, by logical definition, states that since ∅ is a set of absolutely nothing, it is perfectly rational to say that ∅ exists in every set of objects ever, because if you add ∅ to that set, the set doesn't change, thus ∅ can be in any set, including the infinite set. Hence you could argue that everywhere you go, there will always be some amount of ∅ nearby.

But this does not mean ∅ = ∞. That can't be correct because if ∅ = ∞, then ∞={}, which is wrong because it contradicts our starting definition where we said ∞={the entire universe}.
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struan80
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PostPosted: 15:13 - 14 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
orac wrote:
maybe you should stop looking for the answer in maths, and look for it physics, theoretical physics.


No it's a pure maths problem.

struan80 wrote:


Please can you show me the equation that proves infinity does not equal zero then I will admit defeat.


You can do it with set theory. It also gives an interesting result which you might like.

Set theory puts things into sets and compares them with other sets. For example you could have a set "S" of numbers like S={1,4,5,3,6,4}.

For the current discussion, start with the set of everything and label it ∞.

Then we can say ∞ = {the universe}

Now another definition in set theory is the empty set, which is labelled ∅.

And we say ∅ = {}

That is, it's a set with absolutely nothing in it.

So now by simple comparison you can see the following:

{} ≠ {the universe}

This is quite obvious. Therefore:

∅ ≠ ∞

or in layman's terms:

0 ≠ ∞

So there's your proof.

The interesting thing is this: Set theory, by logical definition, states that since ∅ is a set of absolutely nothing, it is perfectly rational to say that ∅ exists in every set of objects ever, because if you add ∅ to that set, the set doesn't change, thus ∅ can be in any set, including the infinite set. Hence you could argue that everywhere you go, there will always be some amount of ∅ nearby.

But this does not mean ∅ = ∞. That can't be correct because if ∅ = ∞, then ∞={}, which is wrong because it contradicts our starting definition where we said ∞={the entire universe}.


Thanks for taking the time, let's see if I can get my head around it, I'll get back to you after my trip to trip in Amsterdam. Are you coming?
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struan80
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PostPosted: 01:02 - 25 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

First infinity does not = ()

then ∅ = {∅}

Also I do believe you have proved that infinity equals zero or is at least possible to equal zero, assuming infinity is everything in the never ending universe.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 03:10 - 26 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

struan80 wrote:
First infinity does not = ()


Who made that claim?

Quote:
then ∅ = {∅}


Indeed, it also equals {∅,∅,∅,∅}.

However by definition, ∅={}

Quote:
Also I do believe you have proved that infinity equals zero or is at least possible to equal zero, assuming infinity is everything in the never ending universe.


No, I showed that zero exists within infinity, not that it is infinity.
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struan80
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PostPosted: 17:41 - 26 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do believe that you are correct Lord Percy. I will now hang up my boots on this one I think. Laughing

I'm happy with your explanation, thanks for taking the time to put my mind at rest mate.
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struan80
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PostPosted: 23:16 - 29 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Begs the question. If infinity can equal zero as you have derived. What happens if it ever does equal zero?

I still believe that 'everything', infinity, tends toward zero. Before the so called 'big bang' the point in which the universe fell from originated as infinitesimally dense. Does density tend towards zero?
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 23:59 - 29 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

struan80 wrote:
Begs the question. If infinity can equal zero as you have derived. What happens if it ever does equal zero?

I still believe that 'everything', infinity, tends toward zero. Before the so called 'big bang' the point in which the universe fell from originated as infinitesimally dense. Does density tend towards zero?


FFS give it up.

I bet you think that you could talk a dog out of taking a shit.
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struan80
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PostPosted: 00:02 - 30 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:
struan80 wrote:
Begs the question. If infinity can equal zero as you have derived. What happens if it ever does equal zero?

I still believe that 'everything', infinity, tends toward zero. Before the so called 'big bang' the point in which the universe fell from originated as infinitesimally dense. Does density tend towards zero?


FFS give it up.

I bet you think that you could talk a dog out of taking a shit.


Fuck off, get yourself out of my mentally manic thread.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 00:05 - 30 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neither Zero or Infinity exists, therefore they cannot equal each other.

They are different concepts.
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struan80
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PostPosted: 00:09 - 30 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
Neither Zero or Infinity exists, therefore they cannot equal each other.

They are different concepts.


They do exist, I would think anyway. Zero is nothing and infinity is everything including nothing.

Sorry about this chaps just have to keep it going because it interests me. Rolling Eyes
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The last post was made 6 years, 59 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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