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Battery charger long cable voltage drop cause issue?

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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 13:16 - 16 Feb 2018    Post subject: Battery charger long cable voltage drop cause issue? Reply with quote

If I run the cable from a battery charger out to my shed say about 15mtrs, will the voltage drop cause an issue with charging?

Cheers
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Copycat73
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PostPosted: 13:34 - 16 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

possibly .. measure it with a multi meter to be sure.
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Triton Thrasher
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PostPosted: 13:37 - 16 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

It could possibly make charging take longer, but it will still charge.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 13:39 - 16 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be better (in terms of electrical efficiency, not necessarily safety or convenience) to run a mains extension cable out to the shed then plug the charger in there.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 14:18 - 16 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
It would be better (in terms of electrical efficiency, not necessarily safety or convenience) to run a mains extension cable out to the shed then plug the charger in there.



This.

Except you. could go all HSE and use armoured cable (SWA)
And a weather-proof plug and a socket. (For The Belt & Braces effect)

https://www.screwfix.com/c/electrical-lighting/cable/cat8960001?cableproducttype=armoured
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 16:29 - 16 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trouble with armoured cable is a) Cutting it. then b) Terminating it.

I'd just use arctic cable with an RCD on the end unless you intend to make it permanant. I'm assuming since you're considering running a long twin core DC cable out, you're not going to be walking/driving over it or shutting it in a door.

In that case, armoured would be the weapon of choice. Ideally buried. And make it a proper fused and RCD-ed spur out to your shed with a secondary consumer unit attached at that end.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 18:49 - 16 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hacksaw to nearly the length then peel the plastic back and nip the armour to length using side cutters. It is only galvanised steel wire so not incredible tough.

RCD is a good idea. It would also save tripping your ring-main breaker and shutting down the telly and so bring forth all that is hell down on your arse when Enders or any of that other proletariat shite is being pumped into the house and she is watching it. Shocked
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Islander
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PostPosted: 22:10 - 16 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Yes, hugely.

DC voltage drops considerably even over short distances with thinner wires. I did the 12V electrics on my campervan and the idea is to use thicker cable and the shortest cable runs possible.

There are charts showing the drop for various cable thicknesses over distance.

Here's a calculator.

https://www.voltagedropcalculator.com.au/


There's no difference between AC and DC when it comes to voltage drop. It relates to Ohms law, the higher the current drawn , the higher the I2R losses likewise the smaller the cross sectional area of the cable, the higher the I2R loss.

Also, the higher the voltage for a given load, the lower the current needed - this is why AC is a huge advantage in transmission line systems. It can easily be transformed to higher voltage lower current and vice versa.

The easiest fix for this is to run a mains extension out, rather than a DC extension.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 23:43 - 16 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, in the 19th century. Since about 1950 or so, ~800kV HVDC has been practical and preferable for transmission. However, we'd set up an AC grid by then, so out comes the Not Invented Here cognitive dissonance.

The issue is what voltage means when you're comparing DC to AC. With DC, it's a constant relationship between the two polarities. With AC, you end up fudging it as some root-mean-squared relationship, and for some of your wave, you're pissing away all your low potential in total transmission loss.

But OP doesn't need to know that. The tl;dr version is to transform household "240" AC to something like 20 kV DC, and pump that out to the shed. To be sure that you're getting it through, strip the wire ends and then grasp one in each hand. Be sure to do it quickly and firmly to minimise arcing. If you feel a slight tingle, you're good to step it down to your 12V charging circuit.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 01:02 - 17 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

AC is slightly more efficient for domestic distribution once you've taken reactive losses into account. AC to DC conversion losses approach something like 20-25%, transformer losses are much lower. Where you do gain advantage with DC is over continuous long distances (fewer conductors, no 3 phase required and no skin effect - the whole CSA carries equal current) which is why the continental interconnects are DC.

It's been a while since I studied this stuff but nothing's really changed that much.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 07:50 - 17 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

All very interesting but talking about high-voltage AC and DC transmission doesn't address Parky's question.

Yes, at 12-15v there's a definite voltage drop problem over 15 metres if you keep the wire size the same. Use the heaviest wire you can find for it - double the cross-section half the resistance.
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Copycat73
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PostPosted: 10:06 - 17 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:
All very interesting but talking about high-voltage AC and DC transmission doesn't address Parky's question.

Yes, at 12-15v there's a definite voltage drop problem over 15 metres if you keep the wire size the same. Use the heaviest wire you can find for it - double the cross-section half the resistance.


or buy a car charger with a fast charge er go higher out put .. so the voltage will be correct when it gets to the bike..

https://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/p/car-accessories/winter-essentials/winter-maintenance/battery-chargers/?551770781&0&cc5_145
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MCN
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PostPosted: 11:25 - 17 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could do it all carbon neutral.

Set up a wood-fired steam boiler in the house.
Run your steam lines (out-going) and condensate (in-coming) to/from the shed.
Connect to a Steam Turbine or Reciprocating engine driven 12 V DC generator in the shed.
And connect to your charger.

You could also use an AC generator and run through an inverter/transformer to drop/regulate for 12v DC.
That may be more efficient and easier to find the parts.

I would recommend insulating both the out-going steam pipe and the in-coming condensate lines. You will save a lot of energy by doing so and wet steam tends to accumulate so making it more difficult to get back to your boiler. That can mean running excess pressure just for return flow. Crying or Very sad
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bugeye_bob
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PostPosted: 11:27 - 17 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
The trouble with armoured cable is a) Cutting it. then b) Terminating it.

I'd just use arctic cable with an RCD on the end unless you intend to make it permanant. I'm assuming since you're considering running a long twin core DC cable out, you're not going to be walking/driving over it or shutting it in a door.

In that case, armoured would be the weapon of choice. Ideally buried. And make it a proper fused and RCD-ed spur out to your shed with a secondary consumer unit attached at that end.

Not if you are a sparky, it easier.
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Triton Thrasher
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PostPosted: 12:43 - 17 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:

It relates to Ohms law, the higher the current drawn. the higher the I2R losses.


Yes. Charging a bike battery is a low current draw.

I charge mine at 0.8 A, falling below 0.1 A approaching full charge.

15 m of 12 V circuitry makes no practical difference at all to charging at that rate, so long as you don't trip over it.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 12:47 - 17 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Build a giant Tesla coil in your basement and fit the bike with an induction charger. Simply park it close enough.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:58 - 17 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craaaaaazy thought: take the battery indoors and charge it there.

If it's not holding a charge because it's buggered, buy another battery.

I realise these strategies will avoid a fite with your pikeyer neighbour, mind, so they may not apply to your particular situation.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 13:24 - 17 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete. wrote:
All very interesting but talking about high-voltage AC and DC transmission doesn't address Parky's question.

Yes, at 12-15v there's a definite voltage drop problem over 15 metres if you keep the wire size the same. Use the heaviest wire you can find for it - double the cross-section half the resistance.


I did answer it in my first post Razz
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 15:05 - 17 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have permission from the Cooncil to bury a mains cable. But I just wanted a quick solution until I get round to it. I already have an overhead cable for the cctv so easy enough to string a charger cable next to it.

After some thought I've come to the conclusion that the voltage drop from either side of the circuit will essentially cancel each other out. IE measured from the battery there would be a drop as well so from the chargers circuitry point of view it would just bump up the current a little then at the other end of the circuit the voltage drop would be down to what the battery would require at its potential measured at its terminals.

What I was worried about was the drop would fool the charging circuit into reading the level of charge wrongly then give the wrong output and knacker the battery. Or worse.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 15:08 - 17 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Build a giant Tesla coil in your basement and fit the bike with an induction charger. Simply park it close enough.


So when are we off to Dragons Den? Sounds like a winner to me.
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Triton Thrasher
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PostPosted: 16:55 - 17 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:
I have permission from the Cooncil to bury a mains cable. But I just wanted a quick solution until I get round to it. I already have an overhead cable for the cctv so easy enough to string a charger cable next to it.

After some thought I've come to the conclusion that the voltage drop from either side of the circuit will essentially cancel each other out. IE measured from the battery there would be a drop as well so from the chargers circuitry point of view it would just bump up the current a little then at the other end of the circuit the voltage drop would be down to what the battery would require at its potential measured at its terminals.

What I was worried about was the drop would fool the charging circuit into reading the level of charge wrongly then give the wrong output and knacker the battery. Or worse.


Don't want to sound obvious, but why not just try it and see. It won't knacker the battery, whatever other "problem" it might cause.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 20:46 - 17 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Triton Thrasher wrote:


Don't want to sound obvious, but why not just try it and see. It won't knacker the battery, whatever other "problem" it might cause.


Worth asking the BCF'ers first. The usually something interesting to learn.
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Triton Thrasher
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PostPosted: 22:36 - 17 Feb 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:

Worth asking the BCF'ers first. The usually something interesting to learn.


There has been, but not much about your long leads.
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