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Powderhead
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 06 Mar 2018
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PostPosted: 13:24 - 23 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Yep, TVAM. Some years ago now.


Would you recommend it? I read your review on BikeSafe, cheers for that! Have you ever done anything "advanced" apart from BikeSafe and training with TVAM?
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Freddyfruitba...
World Chat Champion



Joined: 20 May 2016
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PostPosted: 13:53 - 23 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Freddyfruitbat wrote:
Where d'you get that from?

A chap on here who was pimping IAM training by making exactly that point. I repeat it to emphasise that accepting The Noble Roadcraft into your heart should lead to you riding every ride consistently. The suggestion that there's somehow a more Roadcraft way to ride that you'd demonstrate only while under test is bizarre.

But as I said, riding 'consistently' (if you mean 'identically every time' is absolutely not what Roadcraft is about. I'm being taught (and rightly so) to ride according to the current conditions and to react instantaneously to any changes. The Noble Book states that too. I think you must have been taught a very ignoble version of Roadcraft.

Rogerborg wrote:
Freddyfruitbat wrote:
I don't know why you think Roadcraft would have you powering over a blind crest??

It wouldn't, that's exactly my point.
However, I saw IAM observers doing that while on an assessed run, and then bamt got all hard on me.

Just makes no sense, obviously. No way would Roadcraft advocate doing that unless they knew 100% that the road was clear. Intriguing to say the least
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G
The Voice of Reason



Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 14:00 - 23 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I would recommend it - presuming of course you want to learn to give yourself a good chance to avoid having an accident on the road.

Just TVAM and reading road craft myself - nothing over that.

You'll have seen from the dates - it's a while since I've done that sort of stuff - very rare I ride on the roads these days. Occasional trackdays for the moment.

Oh and any ride I went on they absolutely would slow for blind crests and so on - though whether they'd slow enough for t'borg is another matter! Smile
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 14:48 - 23 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freddyfruitbat wrote:
But as I said, riding 'consistently' (if you mean 'identically every time' is absolutely not what Roadcraft is about.

Identically given the same conditions.

Being observed is not a condition that should change the way that you ride.


Freddyfruitbat wrote:
[Powering over hill crests] kust makes no sense, obviously. No way would Roadcraft advocate doing that unless they knew 100% that the road was clear. Intriguing to say the least

Exactly why I found it notable. I was riding that road for the first time, and stuck scrupulously to the cardinal rule of being able to stop safely on my own side of the road in the space that I could see to be clear.

The IAM riders were riding based on what they 'knew' was on the other side. We're not talking catching air with a blind junction just over the crest, but the would not have been able to stop if there had been a basket of kittens on the road.
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 15:44 - 23 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:


What I will say is that if you actually self assess your riding on an ongoing basis, you're probably going to do better than someone who's got themselves a gold star and then treats it as a licence to ignore everything they've just learned.


Honest self assessment is a good way to go, reading Road craft and keep it in mind when looking at yourself.
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Redd
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Joined: 24 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: 18:06 - 23 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went to the Glasgow IAM group back in 07/08. Probably improved my riding safety a fair bit, but packed it in after a few months because of the inconsistency of the advice.

For example, 1 week I was out with an older chap on a KTM. We blasted round the twisties for hours and had a great time while sticking to speed limits. He was totally happy with my riding from an assessor point of view.

The next week I had a guy on a chrometastic cruiser with fetching tassles on his leather saddle bags. Practically the same route as previous week so rode at a similar pace as the previous week. Had to stop a few times to wait as he was slow as hell...and when he decided to give me feedback it was about how I was going too fast, dangerous, etc.

Got the previous weeks assessor and him together to try an figure out why I was hearing very different things from a very similar ride. Turns out the 2nd assessor was a long standing member of the group. He told me off for questioning his assessment, I told him to stick his assessment up his arse and left...there may have been a bit of wheelspin on the loose gravel Wink

Didn't go back. The course teaches useful stuff, definitely a net positive for my riding. People can be difficult.
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bamt
World Chat Champion



Joined: 15 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: 19:39 - 23 Mar 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Freddyfruitbat wrote:
But as I said, riding 'consistently' (if you mean 'identically every time' is absolutely not what Roadcraft is about.

Identically given the same conditions.

Being observed is not a condition that should change the way that you ride.


It depends upon what you want the observer to observe.
If you want them to observe and comment on your bimbling riding style, then you ride in a bimbling fashion.
If you want them to observe and comment on your "making progress" riding style, then you ride faster and take the overtakes when you can do so safely.

For most people, there is more to be learned from the "making progress" bit than the bimbling, because much more is going on and you need to make proper use of the bike's manoeuvrability and power to do it safely.
That absolutely does NOT mean that "making progress" is the only way that is acceptable to the IAM, just that it's what makes the most out of the limited time available on observed rides.

Quote:

The IAM riders were riding based on what they 'knew' was on the other side. We're not talking catching air with a blind junction just over the crest, but the would not have been able to stop if there had been a basket of kittens on the road.


I wouldn't disagree that some IAM people ride like knobs because they have a piece of paper that says they are a god Smile

The most important thing is the assistance in developing a self-critical view of your riding, and challenging what you believe is good practice. Whether you choose to agree with any particular point is almost immaterial - it's going through that process of saying "I was in that position, speed and gear because X", then the observer saying "But had you seen/considered Y". You may or may not agree with Y, but it's another data point to feed into your riding rather than just assuming that you know everything and are infallible. The observers are definitely not perfect, I'm not claiming they are (and very strongly disagreed with the views of some of them).

Personally I'm no longer a member of the local group, because the enthusiastic group rides aren't really my cup of tea and I had trouble making time for them anyway, but I do believe that I got good value from my time spent with the group.
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 6 years, 7 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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