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 Posted: 14:14 - 04 Apr 2018  Post subject: |
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Racists rejoice, PSA / Vauxhall are moving production of White Man's Vans to Luton, "despite Brexit". 
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Posted: 14:58 - 04 Apr 2018  Post subject: |
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That nicely balances the amount the government spent on their pro-remain leaflet campaign then.
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Posted: 03:10 - 11 Apr 2018  Post subject: |
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It's not exactly true though, and even if it were, this stuff isn't all (or actually even mostly) bad.
Firstly, all this stuff is dependent on the UK deciding, post-Brexit, to lower our own standards. There will of course be pressure from the US to do so if we want to trade with them, but we are certainly not obligated to do so. If the UK government is sensible (it isn't), it will take proper scientific advice on the subject (it won't), and relax those rules which are actually currently to the public detriment, whilst retaining those which are for the public good (actually, they'll go for autistic screeching).
Other rules will necessarily be set by the market, such as GM. I don't know the details off the top of my head, but certainly some foodstuffs at least can be GM and sold in the EU now, they just have to be labelled as such. The reason they aren't is that people won't buy them. This is also true in the US. The US brewer I worked for last year is absolutely terrified of anything GM being publicly known to be in their products. To the extent that they conciously use vastly different (and much more expensive) recipes in the US and EU to the ones they use in China, India and Africa. Quality is the same.
As a brief summary of the things disscussed in that article along with my thoughts (not based on extensive research so just opinions):
Chlorinated chickens and growth hormone cows - generally a poor idea on animal welfare grounds, but, as far as I know, no major risk to the public.
'Pus' milk - ditto
Pesticides on vegetables - no idea, no real knowledge of this subject, but I'd assume its probably ok as long as the agents have been approved for use at all in the EU and of course that the products were washed and processed correctly.
Antibiotic treated meat - terrible idea. Really very stupid that should (and probably soon will) be much more heavily regulated in the US as well.
GM foods - really an excellent idea that Europe should, and eventually will, implement. Just a case of consumer perceptions changing, so call it 10 years maybe (there is probably rather more GM out there than you'd imagine, especially as it's almost impossible to procure non-GM fructose corn syrups in any quantity now and that stuff is in everything)
Food labelling - EU is better, and we shouldn't change this on the grounds of consumer openness and the ability to make our own choices.
Medicine - medicine is more expensive in the US because, as a rule, it's better. The NHS has much better negotiating power than the US healthcare providers due to scale and its virutal monopoly, but generally it costs more in the US for a given condition or course of treatment because they aren't beholden to the UK 'QALY/£' system. That means they can and do use more modern, more efficacious treatments as the 'standard' treatment than the NHS can't justify from a cost perspective. The standard of equipment in the US is also far superior (taking cancer as an example, the UK is actually just as close to India as the US in terms of oncology specialists per head of populace or LINAC accelerators per head of populace). None of this will change after Brexit as it's the call of NHS procurement and NICE guidance, not trade regulations that dictates the prices of the stuff the NHS prescribes (mostly).
EU drug trials are actually a bit more stringent as well, but this is a bad thing. It's now so costly to develop anything in the EU that companies dont bother, leading to reduced access to proven, lifesaving treatments in this market. Plus, there was a study in Nature (I think) recently that suggested that because the process is so long now, and we have a good idea of whether something is safe by the second phase of trials (out of 4), that it actually costs lives in the EU system because the drug is kept out the market for a further 3-10 years where it could be helping people, and it wouldn't have casued any deaths anyway.
The drug patent thing - The US is better. Yes, patented drugs command a 30-50% pricing premium on average over generics, but it costs $500M to develop a single new, viable compound (allegedly) and a patent only lasts 20 years. If, under the EU system, 15 of those 20 years are taken up with trials, you only have 5 years of protected sales to recoup your $500M and drive a profit. It's not possible, so the companies just launch in the US instead (where they can reclaim the years spent in trials as a patent extension) and don't bother with Europe at all because there is very little commercial incentive. How is that in the public interest?
Anyway, that's a lot of words, but generally, whilst there are genuine concerns about any potential deal with the US and the impact this could have on food welfare and safety standards, that article is so poorly supported and biased that it's practically fearmongering. And that's from a genrally pro-EU person who voted remain...
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| Posted: 17:23 - 11 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| asta1 wrote: |
It's not exactly true though, and even if it were, this stuff isn't all (or actually even mostly) bad.
Firstly, all this stuff is dependent on the UK deciding, post-Brexit, to lower our own standards. There will of course be pressure from the US to do so if we want to trade with them, but we are certainly not obligated to do so. If the UK government is sensible (it isn't), it will take proper scientific advice on the subject (it won't), and relax those rules which are actually currently to the public detriment, whilst retaining those which are for the public good (actually, they'll go for autistic screeching).
Other rules will necessarily be set by the market, such as GM. I don't know the details off the top of my head, but certainly some foodstuffs at least can be GM and sold in the EU now, they just have to be labelled as such. The reason they aren't is that people won't buy them. This is also true in the US. The US brewer I worked for last year is absolutely terrified of anything GM being publicly known to be in their products. To the extent that they conciously use vastly different (and much more expensive) recipes in the US and EU to the ones they use in China, India and Africa. Quality is the same.
As a brief summary of the things disscussed in that article along with my thoughts (not based on extensive research so just opinions):
Chlorinated chickens and growth hormone cows - generally a poor idea on animal welfare grounds, but, as far as I know, no major risk to the public.
'Pus' milk - ditto
Pesticides on vegetables - no idea, no real knowledge of this subject, but I'd assume its probably ok as long as the agents have been approved for use at all in the EU and of course that the products were washed and processed correctly.
Antibiotic treated meat - terrible idea. Really very stupid that should (and probably soon will) be much more heavily regulated in the US as well.
GM foods - really an excellent idea that Europe should, and eventually will, implement. Just a case of consumer perceptions changing, so call it 10 years maybe (there is probably rather more GM out there than you'd imagine, especially as it's almost impossible to procure non-GM fructose corn syrups in any quantity now and that stuff is in everything)
Food labelling - EU is better, and we shouldn't change this on the grounds of consumer openness and the ability to make our own choices.
Medicine - medicine is more expensive in the US because, as a rule, it's better. The NHS has much better negotiating power than the US healthcare providers due to scale and its virutal monopoly, but generally it costs more in the US for a given condition or course of treatment because they aren't beholden to the UK 'QALY/£' system. That means they can and do use more modern, more efficacious treatments as the 'standard' treatment than the NHS can't justify from a cost perspective. The standard of equipment in the US is also far superior (taking cancer as an example, the UK is actually just as close to India as the US in terms of oncology specialists per head of populace or LINAC accelerators per head of populace). None of this will change after Brexit as it's the call of NHS procurement and NICE guidance, not trade regulations that dictates the prices of the stuff the NHS prescribes (mostly).
EU drug trials are actually a bit more stringent as well, but this is a bad thing. It's now so costly to develop anything in the EU that companies dont bother, leading to reduced access to proven, lifesaving treatments in this market. Plus, there was a study in Nature (I think) recently that suggested that because the process is so long now, and we have a good idea of whether something is safe by the second phase of trials (out of 4), that it actually costs lives in the EU system because the drug is kept out the market for a further 3-10 years where it could be helping people, and it wouldn't have casued any deaths anyway.
The drug patent thing - The US is better. Yes, patented drugs command a 30-50% pricing premium on average over generics, but it costs $500M to develop a single new, viable compound (allegedly) and a patent only lasts 20 years. If, under the EU system, 15 of those 20 years are taken up with trials, you only have 5 years of protected sales to recoup your $500M and drive a profit. It's not possible, so the companies just launch in the US instead (where they can reclaim the years spent in trials as a patent extension) and don't bother with Europe at all because there is very little commercial incentive. How is that in the public interest?
Anyway, that's a lot of words, but generally, whilst there are genuine concerns about any potential deal with the US and the impact this could have on food welfare and safety standards, that article is so poorly supported and biased that it's practically fearmongering. And that's from a genrally pro-EU person who voted remain... |
I dont even know why It's an issue that this stuff could be imported, unless we're going to become a communist state where only this sort of food is on offer, there is a free market of goods of which people are free to choose if they want ' pus milk' , who does VAL think he's kidding?
The thing on Hormone treated beef is bollocks frankly, the WHO says it's safe, and the WTO is not happy about how the EU uses it as an excuse to put up barriers.
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asta1
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| Posted: 17:41 - 11 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| Rob Fzs wrote: |
I dont even know why It's an issue that this stuff could be imported, unless we're going to become a communist state where only this sort of food is on offer, there is a free market of goods of which people are free to choose if they want ' pus milk' , who does VAL think he's kidding?
The thing on Hormone treated beef is bollocks frankly, the WHO says it's safe, and the WTO is not happy about how the EU uses it as an excuse to put up barriers. |
The main concern that I have is that US regulations are much less stringent on the labelling requirements for food. As such, whilst I'd be fine for this sort of thing to be sold in the UK (and the rest of the EU as well tbh), I wouldn't want to adopt the US system in it's entirety as then how could consumers make an informed choice?
The 'pus' milk and hormone treated beef are certainly safe for consumption, the issue is on th grounds of animal welfare, not food safety. My understanding is that the pus thing is a poor idea as it allows poorer standards of hygiene and less stringent QC in farms. Effectively, the pus is an indicator of immune stress, usually from infection, and whilst its safe to consume, it does indicate sickly or unhealthy animals.
The hormone thing is, to my knowledge at least, safe, but again, it induces unnatural growth rates on cattle, which could potentially raise stress and may lower welfare standards if overused or administered incorrectly. Efficient though.
Finally, you would probably find it quite difficult to avoid these products if they were 'legal' in the UK. For milk especially, the margin is very low due to supermarket pricing, so if farmers can relax standards to reduce their operating costs, they'll have little choice but to do so if they want to remain competitive. It's one thing for a small producer selling to a boutique or at a farmers market, but for commercial farms supplying the likes of Tesco, Aldi, and for use by compaines such as Muller in yoghurts etc? Quite another.
Not to say it shouldn't be allowed, just that it needs to be done intelligently and carefully to balance US trade pressure with exisiting consumer standards.
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Rob Fzs
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| Posted: 20:27 - 11 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| asta1 wrote: | | Rob Fzs wrote: |
I dont even know why It's an issue that this stuff could be imported, unless we're going to become a communist state where only this sort of food is on offer, there is a free market of goods of which people are free to choose if they want ' pus milk' , who does VAL think he's kidding?
The thing on Hormone treated beef is bollocks frankly, the WHO says it's safe, and the WTO is not happy about how the EU uses it as an excuse to put up barriers. |
The main concern that I have is that US regulations are much less stringent on the labelling requirements for food. As such, whilst I'd be fine for this sort of thing to be sold in the UK (and the rest of the EU as well tbh), I wouldn't want to adopt the US system in it's entirety as then how could consumers make an informed choice?
The 'pus' milk and hormone treated beef are certainly safe for consumption, the issue is on th grounds of animal welfare, not food safety. My understanding is that the pus thing is a poor idea as it allows poorer standards of hygiene and less stringent QC in farms. Effectively, the pus is an indicator of immune stress, usually from infection, and whilst its safe to consume, it does indicate sickly or unhealthy animals.
The hormone thing is, to my knowledge at least, safe, but again, it induces unnatural growth rates on cattle, which could potentially raise stress and may lower welfare standards if overused or administered incorrectly. Efficient though.
Finally, you would probably find it quite difficult to avoid these products if they were 'legal' in the UK. For milk especially, the margin is very low due to supermarket pricing, so if farmers can relax standards to reduce their operating costs, they'll have little choice but to do so if they want to remain competitive. It's one thing for a small producer selling to a boutique or at a farmers market, but for commercial farms supplying the likes of Tesco, Aldi, and for use by compaines such as Muller in yoghurts etc? Quite another.
Not to say it shouldn't be allowed, just that it needs to be done intelligently and carefully to balance US trade pressure with exisiting consumer standards. |
This is pretty much why brexit is pointless talking about with those not in the know, I sell milk for a living for example, i don't really know what this 'pus' milk is? milk that is internationally banned i can assume via global regulators such as Codex, supermarkets are not going to sell substandard products that could risk making people ill, the consumer now under Eu labelling knows very little, they dont know under the organic banner, the straw the cattle lays on/ eats can be bought in from a GM source, they dont know if their meat was killed with stun/ no stun, all they've got is a few labels, mostly red tractor that might portray the idea of the product being produced in a good environment, RT is not mandatory under Eu law.
Then we move down to the domestic market, where British farmers, can mostly only sell on the market when they are Red tractor assured, other than a few niche places, you cant sell without it.
what usually happens, like it does now, food manufacturers can import GM products and they push down the market price of those that are not allowed to plant GM products here, that's what will probably happen if we have one of these trade deals.
So when people like 'Val' post these things, they're effectively advocating restricting choice, a choice the consumer can make by themselves.
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| Posted: 21:00 - 11 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| Rob Fzs wrote: |
This is pretty much why brexit is pointless talking about with those not in the know, I sell milk for a living for example, i don't really know what this 'pus' milk is? milk that is internationally banned i can assume via global regulators such as Codex, supermarkets are not going to sell substandard products that could risk making people ill, the consumer now under Eu labelling knows very little, they dont know under the organic banner, the straw the cattle lays on/ eats can be bought in from a GM source, they dont know if their meat was killed with stun/ no stun, all they've got is a few labels, mostly red tractor that might portray the idea of the product being produced in a good environment, RT is not mandatory under Eu law.
Then we move down to the domestic market, where British farmers, can mostly only sell on the market when they are Red tractor assured, other than a few niche places, you cant sell without it.
what usually happens, like it does now, food manufacturers can import GM products and they push down the market price of those that are not allowed to plant GM products here, that's what will probably happen if we have one of these trade deals.
So when people like 'Val' post these things, they're effectively advocating restricting choice, a choice the consumer can make by themselves. |
This is the basis of the 'pus' milk thing: https://dairy.ahdb.org.uk/technical-information/animal-health-welfare/mastitis/symptoms-of-mastitis/somatic-cell-count-milk-quality-indicator/
Basically, somatic cell counts of >400,000 in milk in the EU renders it unfit for consumption. This cut off level varies by nation, with the US having a cut off at 750,000. This is not dangerous to consumers, it won't make people ill, millions of Americans drink the stuff with no ill effect every year, it's just a case of where the standard is set in terms of 'acceptable' disease burden in dairy cattle.
If the standards are allowed to slip to US levels, Supermarkets will buy and use it as long as the price is right and it's legal. To think otherwise on the grounds of 'honesty' or 'consumer relations' is naive, especially when, as you say, most consumers haven't got a clue and won't even notice. I've no idea how RT status would be effected by these changes. Maybe the higher, EU standard will be retained?
As for consumer choice, nope, it shouldn't matter much, but it is I think important for consumers to get a rough idea of nutritional values, GM status, country of origin etc for their food. The EU requires this, whilst US regs are less stringent (although I don't know the details). Yeah, most people won't care, and most wouldn't know what to look for if they did, but it's improtant that consumers have the information available on the off chance they do.
In the case of Brexit, Britain will have to decide on these issues including GM. British farmers will then have to decide whether to continue with current EU regs, and lose competitive advantage, but retain the option of selling to the EU, or adopt US farming methods such as GM practice, and compete with US imports directly. Whic they chose will be down, as always, to cost, legislation and personal preference.
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Posted: 12:53 - 12 Apr 2018  Post subject: |
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| asta1 wrote: | | Rob Fzs wrote: |
This is pretty much why brexit is pointless talking about with those not in the know, I sell milk for a living for example, i don't really know what this 'pus' milk is? milk that is internationally banned i can assume via global regulators such as Codex, supermarkets are not going to sell substandard products that could risk making people ill, the consumer now under Eu labelling knows very little, they dont know under the organic banner, the straw the cattle lays on/ eats can be bought in from a GM source, they dont know if their meat was killed with stun/ no stun, all they've got is a few labels, mostly red tractor that might portray the idea of the product being produced in a good environment, RT is not mandatory under Eu law.
Then we move down to the domestic market, where British farmers, can mostly only sell on the market when they are Red tractor assured, other than a few niche places, you cant sell without it.
what usually happens, like it does now, food manufacturers can import GM products and they push down the market price of those that are not allowed to plant GM products here, that's what will probably happen if we have one of these trade deals.
So when people like 'Val' post these things, they're effectively advocating restricting choice, a choice the consumer can make by themselves. |
This is the basis of the 'pus' milk thing: https://dairy.ahdb.org.uk/technical-information/animal-health-welfare/mastitis/symptoms-of-mastitis/somatic-cell-count-milk-quality-indicator/
Basically, somatic cell counts of >400,000 in milk in the EU renders it unfit for consumption. This cut off level varies by nation, with the US having a cut off at 750,000. This is not dangerous to consumers, it won't make people ill, millions of Americans drink the stuff with no ill effect every year, it's just a case of where the standard is set in terms of 'acceptable' disease burden in dairy cattle.
If the standards are allowed to slip to US levels, Supermarkets will buy and use it as long as the price is right and it's legal. To think otherwise on the grounds of 'honesty' or 'consumer relations' is naive, especially when, as you say, most consumers haven't got a clue and won't even notice. I've no idea how RT status would be effected by these changes. Maybe the higher, EU standard will be retained?
As for consumer choice, nope, it shouldn't matter much, but it is I think important for consumers to get a rough idea of nutritional values, GM status, country of origin etc for their food. The EU requires this, whilst US regs are less stringent (although I don't know the details). Yeah, most people won't care, and most wouldn't know what to look for if they did, but it's improtant that consumers have the information available on the off chance they do.
In the case of Brexit, Britain will have to decide on these issues including GM. British farmers will then have to decide whether to continue with current EU regs, and lose competitive advantage, but retain the option of selling to the EU, or adopt US farming methods such as GM practice, and compete with US imports directly. Whic they chose will be down, as always, to cost, legislation and personal preference. |
See this is all pointless waffle, Wisemen, Arla etc will not even pickup the milk if it has over 75,000 cell count in it, so why are we worrying about the above? :S but thank you for telling me , a dairy farmer, how it all works.
The debate on regs is quite simple, if we lax standards to improve market openings with the US, we put up barriers with the EU, now who buys the most of our stuff??
to be quite frank, other than paperwork, the EU has sweet FA to do with animal welfare, i know of some real shit holes that as long as the paperwork is filled in, can send their crap on the market, you might get the dairy inspector come round once every 10 years, red tractor which is a seperate regulatory inspectorate come around annually to checkout welfare.
so unless supermarkets drop all that , i highly doubt it, mostly because their supply chains cant be split up, imagine the ballache separating none RT milk with 'high cell count'' to the good stuff, they dont even do that with organic milk now, it's all lumped together, and thus, have no proof of whats what when selling in to the highly restrictive EU market, they could seperate it all, but then that would add massive cost and make the whole operation unviable.
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'00 Aprilia RS50 > '92 Honda CG > '99 Yamaha Fazer > '91 Yamaha RXS > '79 Suzuki X5 > 01' Honda Cg > 07' Honda Cg > 82' Kawasaki Z200 > suzuki gsxr 400 gk73a > honda vfr 400 NC30> Yamaha RD350 YPVS F2 > Kawasaki ZZR 600 D1 > Yamaha TZR 250 2MA >Suzuki TL1000R > Yamaha TDR250 > Honda 929 blade > Suzuki SV1000 > Honda H100
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