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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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 Posted: 12:20 - 11 Apr 2018  Post subject: |
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| Londoner2015 wrote: | Somewhat (I am certainly no legal scholar). Are you? |
Fairly. Let's stick with that, shall we, so that we're sure that we agree on the basics.
The person who proposes any EU directive, appoints a rapporteur, and drafts the legislation: who are they, and how accountable are they to you, or to any other EU voter?
[Relevant because it speaks to the willing subservience to a self appointed priesthood]
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Londoner2015 |
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Londoner2015
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| Posted: 12:46 - 11 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | | Londoner2015 wrote: | Somewhat (I am certainly no legal scholar). Are you? |
Fairly. Let's stick with that, shall we, so that we're sure that we agree on the basics.
The person who proposes any EU directive, appoints a rapporteur, and drafts the legislation: who are they, and how accountable are they to you, or to any other EU voter?
[Relevant because it speaks to the willing subservience to a self appointed priesthood] |
Oh, so you are one of the millionth Brexiters who can’t answer the question: “what EU law do you want to get rid of, and why?” And who doesn’t comment on all the Brexit lies, like the NHS bus, the “we hold all the cards”, etc. I see. Why am I not surprised? Anyway…
AFAIK most EU legislation starts from a proposal by the Commission, which is a kind of cabinet government, with one member per member state. There are other channels, too (citizens’ initiative and others) but I think they are rarer. A proposal is then reviewed by the EU Parliament (with EMPs elected in each member state) and by the EU Council, which is made up of the prime ministers )or equivalent) of each member state, plus the president of the Council itself (and maybe the president of the EU commission, not sure about that).
I am sure the process is way more complex and there are lots of subtleties, but AFAIK this is how it works in summary. Like I said, I am no legal scholar, so, by all means, please do highlight any material errors or omissions.
How are these institutions accountable to me? Well, my PM is in the Council, which nominates the members of the Commission. And of course I have voted for the European Parliament.
It’s an imperfect, indirect, representative democracy. But then so are all democracies.
I’ll also add that the proportional system used for the European Parliament is much much fairer and more representative than the first-past-the-post used here. What do you think of a system where a party can get 90% of the seats with 55% of the votes? Yet that’s what happened to the SNP with Scottish seats last time (I don’t remember if it was 55-90 or 57-85 or what, but somewhere in that region – you get the gist). Or of a system where your vote may always be wasted and never make a difference? This is precisely what happens if you are a Tory in a Labour stronghold, and viceversa; this happens much less in a proportional system, which doesn’t “waste” as many votes: the votes for tiny parties end up not counting, but the votes for the major parties are not “wasted” like they are here. This is also why first-past-the-post systems lends themselves to manipulation by changing constituency boundaries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering ). |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
nimbA
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| Posted: 13:59 - 11 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| Londoner2015 wrote: | AFAIK most EU legislation starts from a proposal by the Commission, which is a kind of cabinet government |
Kind of, in the sense that nobody on it has to be elected.
| Londoner2015 wrote: | There are other channels, too |
Are there? Have any of them every actually been used?
| Londoner2015 wrote: | A proposal is then reviewed by the EU Parliament |
We may differ on our interpretation of what "reviewed" means. They can suggest changes, but the legislation continues until it reaches the Parliament for a vote. It can't be stopped.
If yes, it passes. If no, it goes through committee again... until it passes.
| Londoner2015 wrote: | How are these institutions accountable to me? |
That's not the question that I asked though, is it?
All EU diktats originate from a single person.
Without looking it up, who is our Commissioner?
Did you vote for them? Were you asked if you wanted them?
This person has more power over us than our Prime Minister. They have power over the 500 million people (plus illegals) in the EU.
They were never voted for by a single European citizen.
| Londoner2015 wrote: | It’s an imperfect, indirect, representative democracy. But then so are all democracies. |
The significant difference is that all members of the UK parliament are directly elected, and every piece of legislation is initiated by a directly elected representative.
Even when it's proposed by "the government", it's a parliament of notional peers. Any one of them can initiate legislation, even Quixotically.
| Londoner2015 wrote: | the European Parliament is |
An irrelevance. It's democracy theatre. It has no power to initiate legislation. It has a foot on the brake, it can gesticulate at the driver, but it does not decide the direction of the EU, only the speed.
That's my objection to the EU. It's not rayguns, it's not even that I don't trust the Hun and the Frogs (although I don't), it's that it's a bureaucracy run by 50,000 unelected, unaccountable, self appointed priests who cannot be removed, or rebuked, and who fear and loathe democracy.
Belief in the EU as some sort of benevolent higher power, set apart from and above the mere electorate, seems to me to be fairly irrational.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Londoner2015 |
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Londoner2015
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Posted: 14:28 - 11 Apr 2018  Post subject: |
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As for the other channels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Citizens%27_Initiative
Like I wrote, rarely used – which is why I didn’t focus on this point.
The only thing I understand is that you are either unable or unwilling to answer my other points: the NHS bus, the “we hold all the cards” lies, the idiocy of our electoral system which is way more distortive and unfair than that of the European Parliament, etc. But I am not surprised, I understand it’s tough when all the Brexit fantasies are exposed for what they are.
I am however not sure I understand what your point is. Any official who is not directly elected by the people is … what? Illegitimate? I don’t remember voting for the countless council and ministry bureaucrats who have a huge say in all aspects of our lives – do you? For that matter, we do not even directly vote for the PM! In fact, there are many situations where the British PM changes not because “the will of the people” has changed, but because of some backdoor, under-the-table political stabbing internal to the ruling party. Does this make British PMs… what? Illegitimate? Oh, and how about the House of Lords? Did you vote for any of them?
So, let’s see, you have no objection against an electoral system (ours) where 55% of the votes can lead to 90ish% of the seats (SNP in Scotland 2 elections ago), where most votes are wasted and don’t count for anything, where the results are so sensitive to how you design the boundaries of each constituency, where if you are an X supporter in a Y stronghold your vote will always be wasted etc etc, but you have huge objections with the EU legislative system, which is driven by the PMs (or equivalent) of each member states, by the commissioners they appoint, and by democratically elected MEPs.
Oh, and so far we haven’t got into the details of what EU laws are so bad that you can’t wait to get rid of them, nor about what happens in the post-Brexit world.
Oh, and what does that link you posted supposedly mean? Any reasonable person should be very worried by what is happening in Poland and Hungary. Or are you one of those who think that a “mandate from the people” is a blank cheque to do whatever the hell you want? If so, may I humbly remind you of a certain Adolf who did enjoy a fair share of popular support…? |
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| bhinso |
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bhinso
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Londoner2015
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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Londoner2015
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 6 years, 9 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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