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Pjay
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PostPosted: 23:58 - 15 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
What are your sources for saying Litvinenko wasn't killed by the Russians?
I'm sorry, but just repeating over and over that I appear to be "regurgitating western splurge" isn't going to change my opinions. You'll need to show me something a bit more convincing if you want me to change my mind.
The investigation into Litvinenko's death was carried out by Scotland Yard. Give me your reasons why I should trust you before them if you like.


Circumstantial evidence, isn't proof.
Apart from that, it's laughable that $50m worth of poison was used to kill someone. Stunningly so.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 00:12 - 16 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:


Circumstantial evidence, isn't proof.


Circumstantial? Since you have not read an account of the investigation, what do you base that assertion on?

Quote:
Apart from that, it's laughable that $50m worth of poison was used to kill someone. Stunningly so.


1. Is that figure accurate?
2. Do you deny that Polonium was found anywhere?
3. Do you think "it's laughable that $50m worth of poison was used to kill someone." ? Try saying it again. You never know, you might convince someone Laughing

Here, this makes for quite interesting reading:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/05/russia.science
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 09:03 - 16 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
mpd72 wrote:


Nice dodge.


Just responding in kind.
What was your answer to my question about Putin's statements again? My memory is getting terrible! Laughing


Nah, it's always been selective.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 09:07 - 16 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


Circumstantial? Since you have not read an account of the investigation, what do you base that assertion on?



Much like the recent nerve gas and Syrian chemical weapons attack, Litvinenko's case was nothing more than a "probably". That's not proof.

Quote:
During the 20142015 trial, the Scotland Yard representative witnessed that "the evidence suggests that the only credible explanation is in one way or another the Russian state is involved in Litvinenko's murder".


Quote:
The inquiry also found that there was a strong probability that Lugovoy and Kovtun were acting under the direction of the FSB, and that their actions were probably approved by both Nikolai Patrushev, Director of the FSB, and President Vladimir Putin.[70][71]

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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 09:19 - 16 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

And another mention..

Might certainly explain how they both survived the unsurvivable.

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/04/15/swiss-governmental-lab-identifies-the-substance-used-on-the-skripal-case-as-being-linked-to-the-nato/

Quote:
According to the report of the Swiss Lab the poison found at Salisbury by OPCW investigators looking into the Skripal affair, there are traces of the toxic agent 3-Quinuclidinyl Benzilate and traces of A-234 one of the nerve agents of the novichok group in its original form and in a concentration that would have killed the Skripals, not explaining the clinical picture of the Skripals. However, the presence of 3-Quinuclidinyl Benzilate explains the clinical picture of the Skripals.

3-Quinuclidinyl Benzilate was developed and weaponized in the 1960s as a new chemical agent for battlefield use as a psychochemical and assigned the NATO code Agent BZ.

Agent BZ is a NATO nerve-poisoning agent and a nonlethal chemical weapon that can rendered the enemy too irritable to fight but have unpredictable effects. While nonfatal, agent BZ causes a wide array of potentially incapacitating symptoms in its victims: soldiers can become disoriented or even experience hallucinations, according to a U.S. Army manual from 1963 that can be obtained through the Freedom of Information Act.

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Pjay
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PostPosted: 09:50 - 16 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Circumstantial? Since you have not read an account of the investigation, what do you base that assertion on?

How do you know what I have read?
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 09:53 - 16 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
1. Is that figure accurate?
2. Do you deny that Polonium was found anywhere?
3. Do you think "it's laughable that $50m worth of poison was used to kill someone." ? Try saying it again. You never know, you might convince someone Laughing

The lethal dose is $10m and going by the amounts they say they found, it amounts to $50m being used.

Of course the Russians did that. They always poisoned their hits.
Oh wait no, they always shot them.

You've turned the investigations 'probably' into a 'definitely'. Well done.

Keep on being spoon fed your information and question only which you think goes against that tasty diet.
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 10:08 - 16 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
And another mention..

Might certainly explain how they both survived the unsurvivable.

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/04/15/swiss-governmental-lab-identifies-the-substance-used-on-the-skripal-case-as-being-linked-to-the-nato/

Quote:
According to the report of the Swiss Lab the poison found at Salisbury by OPCW investigators looking into the Skripal affair, there are traces of the toxic agent 3-Quinuclidinyl Benzilate and traces of A-234 one of the nerve agents of the novichok group in its original form and in a concentration that would have killed the Skripals, not explaining the clinical picture of the Skripals. However, the presence of 3-Quinuclidinyl Benzilate explains the clinical picture of the Skripals.

3-Quinuclidinyl Benzilate was developed and weaponized in the 1960s as a new chemical agent for battlefield use as a psychochemical and assigned the NATO code Agent BZ.

Agent BZ is a NATO nerve-poisoning agent and a nonlethal chemical weapon that can rendered the enemy too irritable to fight but have unpredictable effects. While nonfatal, agent BZ causes a wide array of potentially incapacitating symptoms in its victims: soldiers can become disoriented or even experience hallucinations, according to a U.S. Army manual from 1963 that can be obtained through the Freedom of Information Act.


Only according to Sergei Lavrov, the official international watchdoigs findings suggest another story.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/04/12/europe/opcw-report-skripal-poisoning-uk-intl/index.html

Unless you can produce this Swiss report? ....no?

You're so quick to jump all over people for believing propoganda yet you seem blind to the possibilty you're believing someone elses. Still, you can't be mislead you're too smart for that Rolling Eyes
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 12:16 - 16 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeywrencher wrote:
mpd72 wrote:
And another mention..

Might certainly explain how they both survived the unsurvivable.

https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2018/04/15/swiss-governmental-lab-identifies-the-substance-used-on-the-skripal-case-as-being-linked-to-the-nato/

Quote:
According to the report of the Swiss Lab the poison found at Salisbury by OPCW investigators looking into the Skripal affair, there are traces of the toxic agent 3-Quinuclidinyl Benzilate and traces of A-234 one of the nerve agents of the novichok group in its original form and in a concentration that would have killed the Skripals, not explaining the clinical picture of the Skripals. However, the presence of 3-Quinuclidinyl Benzilate explains the clinical picture of the Skripals.

3-Quinuclidinyl Benzilate was developed and weaponized in the 1960s as a new chemical agent for battlefield use as a psychochemical and assigned the NATO code Agent BZ.

Agent BZ is a NATO nerve-poisoning agent and a nonlethal chemical weapon that can rendered the enemy too irritable to fight but have unpredictable effects. While nonfatal, agent BZ causes a wide array of potentially incapacitating symptoms in its victims: soldiers can become disoriented or even experience hallucinations, according to a U.S. Army manual from 1963 that can be obtained through the Freedom of Information Act.


Only according to Sergei Lavrov, the official international watchdoigs findings suggest another story.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/04/12/europe/opcw-report-skripal-poisoning-uk-intl/index.html

Unless you can produce this Swiss report? ....no?

You're so quick to jump all over people for believing propoganda yet you seem blind to the possibilty you're believing someone elses. Still, you can't be mislead you're too smart for that Rolling Eyes


So that report says it was so pure, it was without impurities, yet it failed to kill the intended target?

Most odd, considering the potency of it.

The funny thing here is that we all understand that this is an episode of espionage, yet we assume what we know about it is in the realm of factual information.

We know next to nothing, the information we have is without doubt cleared/concocted by the very people that deal daily in espionage.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:08 - 16 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:


What was your answer to my question about Putin's statements again? My memory is getting terrible! Laughing


Nah, it's always been selective.


Nice dodge.

Pjay wrote:
How do you know what I have read?


I didn't say anything about what you have read. I said what you have not read. You have demonstrated here no indication that you are familiar with any details of the Litvinenko case, fact, claims or otherwise.

Pjay wrote:
The lethal dose is $10m and going by the amounts they say they found, it amounts to $50m being used.


Where are these figures from? And what are the exact quantities they apply to? Who is selling Polonium 210 at these prices? Did you look in your local pharmacy? Laughing Perhaps you think Putin popped down to his local atomic research establishment and pulled out his wallet - here's an imagined conversation for you since you are fond of such:

Putin: How much for some Polonium 210?
Counter attendant: How much do you want? It's $10m for enough to kill someone.
Putin (pulls out wallet and rummages through cash): I seem to be a little short. Do you take MasterCard?

Is that the kind of scenario you envisage? Laughing

Pjay wrote:
Of course the Russians did that. They always poisoned their hits.
Oh wait no, they always shot them.


There are many cases in which the Soviets, and now the Russians under Putin, have used poison in assassination attempts. It's easy to find such reports, so no need to take my word for it.

What is your evidence that "they always shot them" ? Shot who? And does assassination of some by shooting preclude the possibility of poisoning in other cases? Does the murder of Trotsky with an ice pick mean that since then, all Russian assassinations have to be carried out that way?

Pjay wrote:
We know next to nothing, the information we have is without doubt cleared/concocted by the very people that deal daily in espionage.


Pjay wrote:
So that report says it was so pure, it was without impurities, yet it failed to kill the intended target?

Most odd, considering the potency of it.


Is that a fact? Laughing
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 15:00 - 16 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
I didn't say anything about what you have read. I said what you have not read. You have demonstrated here no indication that you are familiar with any details of the Litvinenko case, fact, claims or otherwise.


You love assumptions.

chickenstrip wrote:
Where are these figures from? And what are the exact quantities they apply to? Who is selling Polonium 210 at these prices? Did you look in your local pharmacy? Laughing Perhaps you think Putin popped down to his local atomic research establishment and pulled out his wallet - here's an imagined conversation for you since you are fond of such:

Putin: How much for some Polonium 210?
Counter attendant: How much do you want? It's $10m for enough to kill someone.
Putin (pulls out wallet and rummages through cash): I seem to be a little short. Do you take MasterCard?

Is that the kind of scenario you envisage? Laughing


I have gone through the maths here previously, you've obviously not read that.
The cost is high because it is extremely expensive to make.
You really are being gullible if you think the russians, who had always used cheap as fuck guns/bullets to kill people, suddenly decide to waste $50m of marketable polonuim on a hit. It's ludicrous, but suits the propaganda machine wonderfully.

Pjay wrote:
Of course the Russians did that. They always poisoned their hits.
Oh wait no, they always shot them.


chickenstrip wrote:
There are many cases in which the Soviets, and now the Russians under Putin, have used poison in assassination attempts. It's easy to find such reports, so no need to take my word for it.


Do point me to such cases.

chickenstrip wrote:
What is your evidence that "they always shot them" ? Shot who? And does assassination of some by shooting preclude the possibility of poisoning in other cases? Does the murder of Trotsky with an ice pick mean that since then, all Russian assassinations have to be carried out that way?


Also listed here previously.

chickenstrip wrote:
Is that a fact? Laughing


Well yes it is, have you read up on the lethal dosage?
If you had, maybe you'd stop being a moron.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 15:05 - 16 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, I think it probably was the Russians, but I am not ever going to state that I know something that I clearly do not.

I certainly know that the Russians being guilty suits us, the EU and the USA very much indeed. That is enough for me to be sceptical and think maybe it wasn't the Russians.

Believe what you want, but please dont come across as if you know who did it, you dont. Get over yourself ffs.

Yeah yeah yeah, you've not said the Russians have done it, but you for sure as fuck jump all over anyone that suggests they didnt.

What a wonderful stance, you're right even when you're wrong.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:57 - 16 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
I didn't say anything about what you have read. I said what you have not read. You have demonstrated here no indication that you are familiar with any details of the Litvinenko case, fact, claims or otherwise.


You love assumptions.


"You have demonstrated here..." is not an assumption. In my view, of course. But that's how it looks to me.

Pjay wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
Where are these figures from? And what are the exact quantities they apply to? Who is selling Polonium 210 at these prices?


I have gone through the maths here previously, you've obviously not read that.
The cost is high because it is extremely expensive to make. , suddenly decide to waste $50m of marketable polonuim on a hit. It's ludicrous, but suits the propaganda machine wonderfully.


This has been posted before (not by me), but reading all of it gives a fuller picture than reading just part:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/polonium-is-costly-undetectable-trillion-times-more-toxic-than-cyanide/article18179025/

Pjay wrote:
You really are being gullible if you think the russians, who had always used cheap as fuck guns/bullets to kill people


This just is not the case. I don't know where you get that idea from.

Pjay wrote:

chickenstrip wrote:
There are many cases in which the Soviets, and now the Russians under Putin, have used poison in assassination attempts. It's easy to find such reports, so no need to take my word for it.


Do point me to such cases.


Happy to oblige. Here are just a few:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/09/a-brief-history-of-attempted-russian-assassinations-by-poison/

You needn't rely on this particular source either. Just use the names here to find out more for yourself. You won't find many arguments about why they aren't suspected Russian attempts, and you could go back in time to Soviet days and find many more. Ok, they have not all been proven, but how many do you need before you start to get a little suspicious? I'd give the benefit of the doubt if it was just one or two cases, but added to all the other things Putin says and does, I just get to a point where it becomes very difficult to argue that it's all just conspiracy theory.

Pjay wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
Is that a fact?


Well yes it is, have you read up on the lethal dosage?


As has also been mentioned, there are many possibilities of why the Skripals have survived. Others have survived attempts with different highly lethal agents.

Pjay wrote:
If you had, maybe you'd stop being a moron.


Personal insults Sad Didn't expect that from you. If my teasing upsets you, then I apologise, but I'm not the only one guilty of that.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 18:32 - 16 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/09/a-brief-history-of-attempted-russian-assassinations-by-poison/

You do love assumptions, that article is full of them.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 18:44 - 16 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why so many though?
It would be just as easy to deny that intelligence services have ever carried out assassinations on foreign soil.

The problem with getting absolute proof is obviously that governments alleged to be responsible tend to block investigations on their own soil, so if an assassin gets away, there really isn't much chance of a full and fair trial. But "fair" also means that the prosecution isn't hampered (as happened with the detectives who went to Russia to investigate the Litvinenko case) in its investigations, not just that the accused gets to put his side. In cases where the head of state is suspected of giving the order, a prosecutor has no chance.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 19:43 - 16 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjat wrote:
For the record, I think it probably was the Russians, but I am not ever going to state that I know something that I clearly do not.


chickenstrip wrote:
The problem with getting absolute proof is obviously that governments alleged to be responsible tend to block investigations on their own soil, so if an assassin gets away, there really isn't much chance of a full and fair trial. But "fair" also means that the prosecution isn't hampered (as happened with the detectives who went to Russia to investigate the Litvinenko case) in its investigations, not just that the accused gets to put his side. In cases where the head of state is suspected of giving the order, a prosecutor has no chance.


That's the thing; how many times do you let the prime suspect get off scot-free (add Malaysian Flight MH17 to the list) before you respond (mildly) with an announced strike (so no one need be hurt) and expel a few diplomats.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 22:41 - 16 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:


That's the thing; how many times do you let the prime suspect get off scot-free (add Malaysian Flight MH17 to the list) before you respond (mildly) with an announced strike (so no one need be hurt) and expel a few diplomats.


If you waited for solid, irrefutable evidence for everything in foreign affairs when dealing with countries you have a dispute with, you'd end up in a state of complete paralysis. Comes a time when you have to make a decision. All those people in the link I gave above who have been alleged to have been poisoned by Putin's state have not been upsetting a wide range of countries around the world; they have all upset Russia in some way. Now that is an irrefutable link. There is good solid evidence for what they did or said to cause this upset. And with the latest one, I maintain that Putin only has himself to blame for people jumping to conclusions, because of the things he says. There is no other interpretation for his "traitors will kick the bucket" statement. If another Russian ex-spy, defected to the west, dies in similarly mysterious circumstances, I'm going to think the same, unless proven otherwise. And in some cases, I might be wrong to do so. But that's not my fault. Just blame Putin Razz
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PostPosted: 02:38 - 17 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Some of you must be wondering at what point it will be time to buy that one-way air ticket to Moscow.


Oh fuck off Laughing is this serious?

Questioning the validity of a shady and totally unverified 'attack' which was instantaneously blamed on Russia, therefore we would probably defect and fight for the enemy in a hot war between us and them? Really? Laughing

If the government said jump off a bridge would you do it?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 06:30 - 17 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

That comment isn't about the Skripal affair in isolation; it's pointed more at the Putin apologists who seem to think he can do no wrong, judging by some of the stuff spouted by others here. And yes, there was more than a hint of sarcasm in the comment.

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that needed pointing out.
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 09:16 - 17 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


If you waited for solid, irrefutable evidence for everything in foreign affairs when dealing with countries you have a dispute with, you'd end up in a state of complete paralysis.


Yeah, who needs proof before you invade a country eh?

Some bloke posted a clip on the Internets so it must be true.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 10:02 - 17 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
That comment isn't about the Skripal affair in isolation; it's pointed more at the Putin apologists who seem to think he can do no wrong, judging by some of the stuff spouted by others here. And yes, there was more than a hint of sarcasm in the comment.

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that needed pointing out.


Again, I have no love or hate for Putin, I just dont hate him because I'm told to.
He is massively loved by his countrymen, are they all brainwashed by Russian propaganda? Probably, but no more than you are brainwashed to hate him, regardless of your thoughts on the matter.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 10:05 - 17 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Some bloke posted a clip on the Internets so it must be true.


Now that really is a case of "pot, kettle, black"!
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 10:14 - 17 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:


Again, I have no love or hate for Putin, I just dont hate him because I'm told to.
He is massively loved by his countrymen, are they all brainwashed by Russian propaganda? Probably, but no more than you are brainwashed to hate him, regardless of your thoughts on the matter.


Hate is too strong a word, I think. It's not an emotional thing for me. I have a very deep mistrust for him.
No, I don't think the Russian people are brainwashed necessarily. Certainly there seem to be plenty of Russians who share my mistrust, even openly declare it, although that probably isn't too wise if they do it from Russian soil and are persistent about it. But for the majority who just want to get on with their lives, I understand why they support him. Not everyone wants politics to dominate their everyday lives.
Putin has done well for his people considering the mess Russia was in post-Soviet days. I think he could have done better for them though, but if all you've known is Soviet times, I'm sure you'd take any improvement without too much complaint.

You know, I'm starting to think Sergei Lavrov might have been a better candidate for president in Russia, but then, diplomats are very good at giving a good impression of course. At least he's not dyed-in-the-wool KGB, which is where most of my mistrust resides.
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chickenstrip
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Joined: 06 Dec 2013
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PostPosted: 10:28 - 17 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Double post.
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Last edited by chickenstrip on 10:53 - 17 Apr 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Pjay
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Joined: 18 Jan 2016
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PostPosted: 10:31 - 17 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Hate is too strong a word, I think. It's not an emotional thing for me. I have a very deep mistrust for him.
No, I don't think the Russian people are brainwashed necessarily. Certainly there seem to be plenty of Russians who share my mistrust, even openly declare it, although that probably isn't too wise if they do it from Russian soil and are persistent about it. But for the majority who just want to get on with their lives, I understand why they support him. Not everyone wants politics to dominate their everyday lives.
Putin has done well for his people considering the mess Russia was in post-Soviet days. I think he could have done better for them though, but if all you've known is Soviet times, I'm sure you'd take any improvement without too much complaint.

You know, I'm starting to think Sergei Lavrov might have been a better candidate for president in Russia, but then, diplomats are very good at giving a good impression of course. At least he's not dyed-in-the-wool KGB, which is where most of my mistrust resides.


And yet here you are.
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