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M.C
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chickenstrip
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 Posted: 19:47 - 20 Apr 2018  Post subject: |
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| Lord Percy wrote: |
I also note the loaded use of the term 'western' governments, suggesting I'm some kind of commie traitor for daring to question the obviously bullshit narrative being pushed.  |
Paranoia, is what that is
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 19:50 - 20 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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Everyone likes to bomb Syrians. Even Syrians.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 19:58 - 20 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| M.C wrote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | Everyone likes to bomb Syrians. Even Syrians. |
I know I just don't get the conspiracy, unless the US were desperate for the UK to send in a few bombers?  |
I'm sure Lord Percy will be along to explain it to you shortly. If he can get off his arse long enough to look more closely, and if he's sure that man outside isn't there for him 
Perhaps Blair has snuck back into No.10, Bush back into the White House? Oh noes, Groundhog Day!
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 22:52 - 20 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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He's certainly not the kind of source I'll be using to form my opinions, put it that way.
@Lord Percy: I don't doubt that western governments (check that paranoia!) make mistakes, are sometimes incompetent, stupid even, and sometimes tell bold-faced lies. But imo, and that of many others, Putin's regime is malicious and malign, at least bordering on the criminal as a matter of habit, in its very nature. So if we jump to the odd hasty conclusion, seem a little paranoid ourselves sometimes, make the odd mistake, I'm willing to forgive that. It is highly unlikely that I will ever change my opinion of Vladimir Putin though.
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Lord Percy
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Lord Percy
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| Posted: 08:28 - 21 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: | But imo, and that of many others, Putin's regime is malicious and malign, at least bordering on the criminal as a matter of habit, in its very nature. So if we jump to the odd hasty conclusion, seem a little paranoid ourselves sometimes, make the odd mistake, I'm willing to forgive that. It is highly unlikely that I will ever change my opinion of Vladimir Putin though. |
You say you're well versed on these topics. I'm interested in where you gather your info from. Presumably all western authors (I said western again ), or at least books that were translated into English for the western reader?
This reminds me of an interview between Noam Chomsky* and Andrew Marr, wherein Marr talked about journalistic integrity and his personal sense of having done the right thing on behalf of the BBC for his entire career. Chomsky fantastically reminded him that he only does so well for the BBC, and only does so well for himself and his integrity, because he is precisely the person the establishment prefers to use. This isn't some kind of conspiracy, it's natural social action at its finest. He's the man for the job specifically because he reports on exactly the sort of things the British public want to know about. It's a perfectly natural state of affairs.
Now consider your Russian history and politics information sources. The majority of it will only have been made available to the western reader precisely because the content is exactly what the western reader wants to know about.
Why do you think Vladimir Putin is so much more evil than anyone else in the world? What's he done? I'm yet to see anything better or worse than anywhere else. This isn't me "siding with the Russians", it's just a realistic viewpoint in a world where the Cold War ended half a century ago and nothing extreme has come from far-eastern Europe ever since.
Do you not think this is just a rather more simple case of 'who gets first dibs on an oil line through Syria'? No real enemies either way, but a whole load of misinformation and hand-wavy 'facts' chucked at the public to generate approval for what is really nothing other than your bog standard garden variety proxy war.
*"I'm not saying you're self-censoring, I'm sure you believe everything you say, but what I'm saying is if you believed something different you wouldn't be sitting here today."
Last edited by Lord Percy on 09:06 - 21 Apr 2018; edited 3 times in total |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 09:09 - 21 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| Lord Percy wrote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | But imo, and that of many others, Putin's regime is malicious and malign, at least bordering on the criminal as a matter of habit, in its very nature. So if we jump to the odd hasty conclusion, seem a little paranoid ourselves sometimes, make the odd mistake, I'm willing to forgive that. It is highly unlikely that I will ever change my opinion of Vladimir Putin though. |
You say you're well versed on these topics. I'm interested in where you gather your info from. Presumably all western authors (I said western again ), or at least books that were translated into English for the western reader?
This reminds me of an interview between Noam Chomsky and Andrew Marr, wherein Marr talked about journalistic integrity and his personal sense of having done the right thing on behalf of the BBC for his entire career. Chomsky fantastically reminded him that he only does so well for the BBC, and only does so well for himself and his integrity, because he is precisely the person the establishment prefers to use. This isn't some kind of conspiracy, it's natural social action at its finest. He's the man for the job specifically because he reports on exactly the sort of things the British public want to know about. It's a perfectly natural state of affairs.
Now consider your Russian history and politics information sources. The majority of it will only have been made available to the western reader precisely because the content is exactly what the western reader wants to know about.
Why do you think Vladimir Putin is so much more evil than anyone else in the world? What's he done? I'm yet to see anything better or worse than anywhere else. This isn't me "siding with the Russians", it's just a realistic viewpoint in a world where the Cold War ended half a century ago and nothing extreme has come from far-eastern Europe ever since.
Do you not think this is just a rather more simple case of 'who gets first dibs on an oil line through Syria'? No real enemies either way, but a whole load of misinformation and hand-wavy 'facts' chucked at the public to generate approval for what is really nothing other than your bog standard garden variety proxy war. |
For all that, I'm still highly unlikely to change my view of Putin. You can read about this stuff, in which case, yes, you have to be careful of bias. Or you can read nothing at all, and remain in a blank state of ignorance, where your views are formed from what, exactly? You know better than the masses of material out there about Putin? Than the actions of the Russian state that are clearly visible? You think it can be that it is all fabrication? How do we know anything at all about history, since it is all written from one perspective or another?
It seems to me that you are deluding yourself. You are the one on the bandwagon, the western self-hating bandwagon that is so popular today. I acknowledge that the west isn't always wonderful, and I see the things that 'it' does which are distasteful, and wish we had done things differently. But that doesn't exculpate Putin.
Syria? Well, I daresay there are strategic manoeuvrings about oil and gas. I'll support the UK's position if it is for our strategic advantage, unless it came to another Iraq-style war. But that is simplistic, and I'm not going into it further here.
Douma? Jury is still out for me. As I said, I'm just thankful the 'retaliation' didn't develop into a wider conflict. Let's hope it stays that way.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 09:36 - 21 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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@Lord Percy.
Just to keep it from being lost amongst other points and discussion:
What makes your views and arguments any more valid or true than mine?
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Diggs
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| Posted: 10:37 - 21 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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I haven't read all of this so forgive me if this has been said before. Can anybody explain what the difference is between a 'chemical' weapon and a conventional bomb in the ability and intention to harm people? Sure, they do it in different ways, but the intention is just the same. With this in mind, I wonder why the West chose to send the missiles over at this point and not before? As with all things 'foreign policy-wise' there is an agenda, but I can't work it out.
The only thing I can think of is to have a go at the Russians by proxy because our Government was made to look like muppets over the novichok business. Either that or Trump wanted to flex his muscles and we agreed to help in exchange for a guarantee of favourable trade deals in the future...
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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| Posted: 11:05 - 21 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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Chemicals are considered less humane and indiscriminate.
I know killing someone is hardly humane, but it's down to the suffering it causes.
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| Posted: 11:20 - 21 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: | I haven't read all of this so forgive me if this has been said before. Can anybody explain what the difference is between a 'chemical' weapon and a conventional bomb in the ability and intention to harm people? Sure, they do it in different ways, but the intention is just the same. With this in mind, I wonder why the West chose to send the missiles over at this point and not before? As with all things 'foreign policy-wise' there is an agenda, but I can't work it out.
The only thing I can think of is to have a go at the Russians by proxy because our Government was made to look like muppets over the novichok business. Either that or Trump wanted to flex his muscles and we agreed to help in exchange for a guarantee of favourable trade deals in the future... |
I suspect it's all over gas pipelines. Russia, who sell 80% of its gas to Europe, want to extend the supply with a pipeline running through Syria. Assad has agreed this, so Russia need him to stay in charge.
The EU, UK and US want an alternative pipeline running through Quatar and Turkey, which will bring gas supply to Europe without the need for Russia. The US and EU in particular are keen to have Europe being less dependant on Russia for it's energy supplies.
It really is that simple. All this bullshit about chemical weapons, is an excuse to demonise Russia and to allow the West to interfere in Syria to make sure Assad and Russia don't get their pipeline.
Or, if anyone's daft enough to fall for the propaganda, it's nothing to do with a pipeline and Russia really did fail to kill 2 people, 6 miles from the only place in the UK to hold and deal with chemical weapons, using a nerve agent which would lay blame on Russia and even though nobody can survive an attack from such a weapon, these 2 Russians are making a full recovery.
Oh yeah, Assad was also daft enough to give the West an excuse to intervene in Syria, at a time where he was romping home to victory.
The institution really does think the general public are that thick and easily led now. Unfortunately, as shown on here, they are largely correct. 
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ThoughtContro...
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| Posted: 11:57 - 21 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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Russia needs to be demonised. You need to demonise an enemy before you can get your populace behind a war. You need good propaganda as black as it comes. "By deception thou shalt do war", whether that's raping nuns and putting babies on bayonets (WW1), Oy vey your grandmother was made into a lampshade for Ilse Koche and melted down into soap in 6 different camps (the soap or rather human fat is also a WW1 re-hash), they threw the babies out of the incubators and let them die on the floor (Gulf War 1), That chicken wire enclosure that those refugees are in is a death camp (Trnopolje and the Yugoslavia destabilisation and war against Serbia for our glorious snackbar allies), he's giving Viagra to troops to rape the women (Libya), whatever shit works you use it or fabricate it. If you need to burn a used up agent you've got most of the info you wanted, then you do it. As long as the public have it firmly planted in the general mass of idiots that make up the populace that it was that Putin that did it, them Russians are bastards, that Assad is a monster that gasses kids because I saw it on Sky News I did, then you're good to go. Kill Russians or bomb Syrian civilians and it's all good. The Guardian and BBC will put the right captions on whatever useful photos to fool the gullible into buying whatever emotional shit you're selling.
It works every time. We deserve all the war and death we get. Go die for Israel and Saudi Arabia like good goyim. If you don't do it now in Syria you'll be doing it in 5+ years time in Iran. Send your kids to die for cheaper non-Russian gas prices. Your central heating needs you!
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Lord Percy
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| Posted: 11:58 - 21 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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One fantastic little oddity I will note here is that conflict is often used as a means to bring a nation together.
I notice that myself and mpd72, who hates me so much that he childishly blocked me long ago, are of exactly the same mindset here. Conflict has brought us together 
Someone quote me so he can see this. Hey mpd72 you wanker, we finally agree on something  |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 6 years ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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