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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 07:00 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


A question of scale perhaps. We at least try to avoid causing civilian casualties - yes, I do think our military commanders consider that seriously, and make the effort. It's something we can hold our politicians to account for to a degree, when we vote. Assad? Less so. Nobody to hold him to account. Putin? Depends on if you believe Russian elections are free and fair.


Well this sounds like a classic case of Us vs Them, where Us is always morally superior to Them.

I've lost count of the amount of videos, images and stories I've seen about NATO troops actions in the middle east. Most famous examples would be:

AC130 gunship civilian casualties

http://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d9187af7e53386ac2fab5d6b2f194ec3-c

Quote:
It now ranks among one of the most high-profile U.S. strikes to result in civilian casualties in Afghanistan. In July 2002, a U.S. AC-130 fired on a wedding party, killing more than 40 and injuring more than 100 people in northern Helmand province


Abu Ghraib Prison

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/AbuGhraibAbuse-standing-on-box.jpg

Admittedly the yanks appear to have been way worse, but there was this gem too:

Royal Marine guilty of Afghanistan murder

Quote:
It showed Marine A shooting the Afghan prisoner with a 9mm pistol, and saying: "There, shuffle off this mortal coil... It's nothing you wouldn't do to us."

He adds: "Obviously this doesn't go anywhere fellas. I just broke the Geneva Convention,"


I remember seeing loads of Facebook posts about this. Marine A was a hero, out risking his life in the theatre of war for our great nation. Lots of Help For Heroes stuff chucked around. People wanted him absolved because he was on our side.

Now how would all these things have been presented and received if they were done by an enemy?

Suddenly the chemical weapons stuff sounds a bit tit-for-tat to me, if it even happened the way the media says it did!
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 07:39 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

duhawkz wrote:
Apparently police have identified suspects in the Skripal case, they are apparently Russian and are believed to have fled to Russia

http://uk.businessinsider.com/police-identify-suspects-sergei-skripal-nerve-agent-poisoning-report-2018-4



Apparently indeed.

When using wording like that, news publishers have license to print whatever they want, as long as it draws in the punters.

Apparently Santa is real and I believe he still gives me presents for being a good boy. Wink
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 07:57 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I decided to see what Quora had to say on this subject. A quick search brought up these three sets of responses:

What do Russians think about the allegation that Putin sanctioned the nerve-agent poisoning of ex-Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter in the UK?

Do you believe Putin or Russian officials ordered the UK nerve gas attack on Sergei Skripal?

How do normal Russian people feel about the UK blaming Russia for poisoning Sergei Skripal with the nerve agent Novichok?

For balance there's also this which seems to have a majority of folk saying it was certainly Putin: How could anyone believe that Russia is really behind the Novichok incident?

Interesting to see what Russians (and other non Brit/US folk) really think, anyway.
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 08:08 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The AC130 incident sounds like a fuck up rather than the deliberate targeting of a civilian area.

Which is a million miles away from lunching a chemical weapons strike on a town or city, knowing full well that a chemical weapon could kill indiscriminately, and also knowing full well that there will be people hiding in basement to avoid the bombing, who will be trapped by the gas as its heavier than air.


On a personal note though I think I'd rather die quickly from exposure to a nerve agent, than lay there with my arms and leg blown off, or trapped under rubble from a conventional bomb.
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Last edited by duhawkz on 08:27 - 22 Apr 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 08:23 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
duhawkz wrote:


No i wasn't


Fair enough. I've just had a look and the 2 did not include you.

The resident "experts" on that thread had less of an idea than I did and were both posting "advice", which contradicted each other, but both thought they were correct.

Both of them couldn't have been and it's shame that IT types always feel the need to play billy big bollocks IT Top Trumps in threads like that.


And this, folks, is why you'll never do any good with this clown. Calls someone out, wrongly, proven to be wrong, and he ain't even got the spine to apologise. Snake, that's what you are. You should be ashamed of yourself. I doubt you have the ability to be though.
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 08:45 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of those quora link mentions something, that I've wondered about. They said the attack took place in the run up to the russian elections.

That did have me wondering if that was the reason for it, to show the opposition what can happen it you go against "putin" and to show supporter how strong russia is.

Here's another article what says a former russian agent claims russia has form for this kind of thing.

http://www.euronews.com/2018/03/13/novichok-nerve-agents-were-used-in-1995-killing-ex-russian-agent-says
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 10:01 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

duhawkz wrote:
One of those quora link mentions something, that I've wondered about. They said the attack took place in the run up to the russian elections.

That did have me wondering if that was the reason for it, to show the opposition what can happen it you go against "putin" and to show supporter how strong russia is.

Here's another article what says a former russian agent claims russia has form for this kind of thing.

http://www.euronews.com/2018/03/13/novichok-nerve-agents-were-used-in-1995-killing-ex-russian-agent-says


If it really was Putin behind it, I suspect they wouldn't be out of hospital making a full recovery. Not much of a message really is it?
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 10:02 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
mpd72 wrote:
Do you read any of this thread before asking the same questions again and again and again?


Ahem:


You don't understand the word "question" then?
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Ste
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PostPosted: 10:18 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Not much of a message really is it?

It's a pretty clear message to never betray their comrades. Betray your country and you'll always be looking over your shoulder, or as in this case you'll always be checking door handles for nerve agent before touching them.

Whether or not Skripal dies is completely besides the point.
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 11:30 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:

If it really was Putin behind it, I suspect they wouldn't be out of hospital making a full recovery. Not much of a message really is it?


I would imagine that there is somebody somewhere spitting feathers at the fact skripal survived.

And he hasn't made a full recovery yet, and the last person exposed to novichok make a recovery in the short term but died badly a few years later, so we'll have to wait and see on that one.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/22/andrei-zheleznyakov-soviet-scientist-poisoned-novichok
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 11:55 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

duhawkz wrote:
mpd72 wrote:

If it really was Putin behind it, I suspect they wouldn't be out of hospital making a full recovery. Not much of a message really is it?


I would imagine that there is somebody somewhere spitting feathers at the fact skripal survived.

And he hasn't made a full recovery yet, and the last person exposed to novichok make a recovery in the short term but died badly a few years later, so we'll have to wait and see on that one.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/22/andrei-zheleznyakov-soviet-scientist-poisoned-novichok


ASSuming of course, it was Novichok and not a false flag by someone with a vested interest in making Russia an enemy of the UK and EU.

When we were told about this attack, the "experts" were saying that Novichok was so deadly, that nobody survives it or at least all become vegetables after the slightest of contact. The fact the OPCW are very carefully neglecting to directly name the substance, tells me there's a good chance of more to this story than we're being told.

But then again, even if this was a ploy to demonise Russia by some form of institution, the speed at which the UK government pointed the finger at Russia, long before any evidence was available, hints to me that we'll never know the truth and the UK government were part of it, or certainly aware.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 11:55 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:


You don't understand the word "question" then?


My point was that despite the fact that people have replied to your "6 miles from..." point, you still keep repeating it. Unlike my question on Putin's rhetoric which has been repeatedly ignored. So I reserve the right to repeat it again and again and again Mr. Green

Is the reason why you have ignored it that it challenges your view of Putin in a way you can't explain?

Just in case you have forgotten the question I am referring to, what does Putin mean by "there is no such thing as an ex-KGB man" and "traitors will kick the bucket"? It goes to the heart of why people "just blame Russia".
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Ste
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PostPosted: 12:13 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
The fact the OPCW are very carefully neglecting to directly name the substance, tells me there's a good chance of more to this story than we're being told.

Of course there's a huge amount more to it than what we're told and I don't think anyone is disputing that.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:26 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:


A question of scale perhaps. We at least try to avoid causing civilian casualties - yes, I do think our military commanders consider that seriously, and make the effort. It's something we can hold our politicians to account for to a degree, when we vote. Assad? Less so. Nobody to hold him to account. Putin? Depends on if you believe Russian elections are free and fair.


Well this sounds like a classic case of Us vs Them, where Us is always morally superior to Them.

I've lost count of the amount of videos, images and stories I've seen about NATO troops actions in the middle east. Most famous examples would be:

AC130 gunship civilian casualties

http://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d9187af7e53386ac2fab5d6b2f194ec3-c

Quote:
It now ranks among one of the most high-profile U.S. strikes to result in civilian casualties in Afghanistan. In July 2002, a U.S. AC-130 fired on a wedding party, killing more than 40 and injuring more than 100 people in northern Helmand province


Abu Ghraib Prison

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/AbuGhraibAbuse-standing-on-box.jpg

Admittedly the yanks appear to have been way worse, but there was this gem too:

Royal Marine guilty of Afghanistan murder

Quote:
It showed Marine A shooting the Afghan prisoner with a 9mm pistol, and saying: "There, shuffle off this mortal coil... It's nothing you wouldn't do to us."

He adds: "Obviously this doesn't go anywhere fellas. I just broke the Geneva Convention,"


I remember seeing loads of Facebook posts about this. Marine A was a hero, out risking his life in the theatre of war for our great nation. Lots of Help For Heroes stuff chucked around. People wanted him absolved because he was on our side.

Now how would all these things have been presented and received if they were done by an enemy?

Suddenly the chemical weapons stuff sounds a bit tit-for-tat to me, if it even happened the way the media says it did!


None of which challenges my question of scale comment. In NATO actions, considering the overall number of operations carried out, the examples you refer to stand out as isolated incidents. Assad's actions show that it is the norm for there to be mass civilian casualties where his military are concerned. Civilians just don't come up on his radar at all.

Also note that our press and media are able to comment freely on such abuses of trust within our own military. I call that a good thing, as it is part of the process of holding people to account. If the odd one slips through that system...well, it doesn't make it ok, but it is comparatively rare.

Regarding chemical weapons attacks in Syria. They have not nearly been on the scale of Saddam Hussein's use in Halabja, but there is an international convention which outlaws their use. The convention could be scrapped, I suppose? Although I'm still not convinced of their having been deployed at Douma.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:37 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
I decided to see what Quora had to say on this subject. A quick search brought up these three sets of responses:

What do Russians think about the allegation that Putin sanctioned the nerve-agent poisoning of ex-Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter in the UK?

Do you believe Putin or Russian officials ordered the UK nerve gas attack on Sergei Skripal?

How do normal Russian people feel about the UK blaming Russia for poisoning Sergei Skripal with the nerve agent Novichok?

For balance there's also this which seems to have a majority of folk saying it was certainly Putin: How could anyone believe that Russia is really behind the Novichok incident?

Interesting to see what Russians (and other non Brit/US folk) really think, anyway.


Hmmm, what about ordinary Russian people in Russia though? That would be more interesting.
These questions are what we are discussing here, so your links offer little that is new to the discussion. Unless you want to pull out any individual points that you want to discuss, that haven't already been referred to here?

No doubt to mpd's disgust, I'll ask you the same question that remains unanswered by all those defending Russia here: what does Putin mean by "there is no such thing as an ex-KGB man", and "traitors will kick the bucket"?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 12:59 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Also note that our press and media are able to comment freely on such abuses of trust within our own military. I call that a good thing, as it is part of the process of holding people to account.


Does it though? Or is it a case of whoops got caught here. As loads of illegal things happen.

MP says lessons will be learned! People shrug and most of the time very little happens.

The only thing I can think of is Iraq Tony Blair subsequent governments went for a Parliamentary vote before any action was taken. The current PM broke this precedent with the recent actions.

It's why when people say rule of law in the UK it's sometimes doubtful.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:05 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
Also note that our press and media are able to comment freely on such abuses of trust within our own military. I call that a good thing, as it is part of the process of holding people to account.


Does it though? Or is it a case of whoops got caught here. As loads of illegal things happen.

MP says lessons will be learned! People shrug and most of the time very little happens.

The only thing I can think of is Iraq Tony Blair subsequent governments went for a Parliamentary vote before any action was taken. The current PM broke this precedent with the recent actions.

It's why when people say rule of law in the UK it's sometimes doubtful.


Oh, I fully concede that we're not perfect. What country is? What politician, in a position of power, anywhere in the world, is entirely trustworthy? But I think we do better than many. Including Russia and Syria.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 13:07 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


Oh, I fully concede that we're not perfect. What country is? What politician, in a position of power, anywhere in the world, is entirely trustworthy?

Oh I agree but there should at least be some consequences for wrong doing.

Even in the old days a wrong doer in a position of power was handed a bottle of whiskey and a loaded revolver.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:14 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:

Oh I agree but there should at least be some consequences for wrong doing.


I've no dispute with that.

Quote:
Even in the old days a wrong doer in a position of power was handed a bottle of whiskey and a loaded revolver.


Free whiskey and firearms? I'm off to do some wrong! Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:31 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
mpd72 wrote:
The fact the OPCW are very carefully neglecting to directly name the substance, tells me there's a good chance of more to this story than we're being told.

Of course there's a huge amount more to it than what we're told and I don't think anyone is disputing that.


Yes. In particular, I'd draw attention to point 12:

https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/S_series/2018/en/s-1612-2018_e_.pdf
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Ste
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PostPosted: 15:35 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

To draw attention to point 12, I'll copy and paste it. Razz

"The name and structure of the identified toxic chemical are contained in the full classified report of the Secretariat, available to States Parties"
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mpd72 CPT
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PostPosted: 15:45 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is the actual name of the chemical used classified, even though Boris and May have been spouting it's name and alleged source for weeks?

The OPCW seem keen to say they confirmed the same findings as the British government, but still refrain from naming what the British government actually found.

If it really was of high purity, how come both Skirpal and his daughter survived? This whole thing stinks of a fix up.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:48 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:


The only thing I can think of is Iraq Tony Blair subsequent governments went for a Parliamentary vote before any action was taken. The current PM broke this precedent with the recent actions.

It's why when people say rule of law in the UK it's sometimes doubtful.


Precedent, not law. Which is why some are calling for it to be made law, which to my mind sounds like a good idea on first examination, except I wonder if there might be circumstances where that would prove unwise? I'm not sure that this latest action would be an example of such circumstances - probably not.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:59 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Why is the actual name of the chemical used classified, even though Boris and May have been spouting it's name and alleged source for weeks?

The OPCW seem keen to say they confirmed the same findings as the British government, but still refrain from naming what the British government actually found.

If it really was of high purity, how come both Skirpal and his daughter survived? This whole thing stinks of a fix up.


Well, we may never know. But if the full statement is available to "States Parties", those who act on these things presumably do know.

It seems to me the name "Novichok" is somewhat generic, and so may indeed not be reliable in statements of fact. But there have been mentions of individual agents within that term, A230, A234 etc. My guess would be one or more of those would be what actually get referred to in the report.

Your last question is another example of you repeating the same questions again and again and again, and has been addressed by others previously.

What does Putin mean by "there's no such thing as an ex-KGB man", and "traitors will kick the bucket"? Razz
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Ste
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PostPosted: 16:03 - 22 Apr 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
If it really was of high purity, how come both Skirpal and his daughter survived?

Several pages ago, stinkwheel wrote:
Just a couple of facts for those of you wondering why the Skripals are still alive.

On finding someone who appears to be suffering a cardiac arrest, one of the first drugs a paramedic would give someone in an attempt to restart their heart is atropine.

One of the the specific antidotes to anticholinesterase nerve agents, as issued in automatic injector pens to troops working in suspect chemical environments is... Atropine.

So, there is a good chance they were inadvertantly administered the very drug that would keep them alive in the case of nerve agent poisoning very shortly after their collapse. Especially if their heart stopped or started beating very slowly.
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