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Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy World Chat Champion
Joined: 03 Aug 2012 Karma :
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Posted: 07:00 - 22 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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chickenstrip wrote: |
A question of scale perhaps. We at least try to avoid causing civilian casualties - yes, I do think our military commanders consider that seriously, and make the effort. It's something we can hold our politicians to account for to a degree, when we vote. Assad? Less so. Nobody to hold him to account. Putin? Depends on if you believe Russian elections are free and fair.
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Well this sounds like a classic case of Us vs Them, where Us is always morally superior to Them.
I've lost count of the amount of videos, images and stories I've seen about NATO troops actions in the middle east. Most famous examples would be:
AC130 gunship civilian casualties
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d9187af7e53386ac2fab5d6b2f194ec3-c
Quote: | It now ranks among one of the most high-profile U.S. strikes to result in civilian casualties in Afghanistan. In July 2002, a U.S. AC-130 fired on a wedding party, killing more than 40 and injuring more than 100 people in northern Helmand province |
Abu Ghraib Prison
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/AbuGhraibAbuse-standing-on-box.jpg
Admittedly the yanks appear to have been way worse, but there was this gem too:
Royal Marine guilty of Afghanistan murder
Quote: | It showed Marine A shooting the Afghan prisoner with a 9mm pistol, and saying: "There, shuffle off this mortal coil... It's nothing you wouldn't do to us."
He adds: "Obviously this doesn't go anywhere fellas. I just broke the Geneva Convention," |
I remember seeing loads of Facebook posts about this. Marine A was a hero, out risking his life in the theatre of war for our great nation. Lots of Help For Heroes stuff chucked around. People wanted him absolved because he was on our side.
Now how would all these things have been presented and received if they were done by an enemy?
Suddenly the chemical weapons stuff sounds a bit tit-for-tat to me, if it even happened the way the media says it did! |
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Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy World Chat Champion
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Posted: 07:39 - 22 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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Apparently indeed.
When using wording like that, news publishers have license to print whatever they want, as long as it draws in the punters.
Apparently Santa is real and I believe he still gives me presents for being a good boy. |
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Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy World Chat Champion
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Posted: 07:57 - 22 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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duhawkz |
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duhawkz World Chat Champion
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB |
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB World Chat Champion
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duhawkz |
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duhawkz World Chat Champion
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Posted: 08:45 - 22 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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One of those quora link mentions something, that I've wondered about. They said the attack took place in the run up to the russian elections.
That did have me wondering if that was the reason for it, to show the opposition what can happen it you go against "putin" and to show supporter how strong russia is.
Here's another article what says a former russian agent claims russia has form for this kind of thing.
https://www.euronews.com/2018/03/13/novichok-nerve-agents-were-used-in-1995-killing-ex-russian-agent-says ____________________ "The guy is a worthless cunt and I honestly believe I would be a slightly happier person if he died." - Chris-Red |
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- Super Spammer
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Posted: 10:01 - 22 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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If it really was Putin behind it, I suspect they wouldn't be out of hospital making a full recovery. Not much of a message really is it? ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
Jaguar S Type 3.0 V6 Sport R, VW Transporter T5 GP LWB Shuttle 140ps DSG. |
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Ste |
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Ste Not Work Safe
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duhawkz |
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duhawkz World Chat Champion
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- Super Spammer
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Posted: 11:55 - 22 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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duhawkz wrote: | mpd72 wrote: |
If it really was Putin behind it, I suspect they wouldn't be out of hospital making a full recovery. Not much of a message really is it? |
I would imagine that there is somebody somewhere spitting feathers at the fact skripal survived.
And he hasn't made a full recovery yet, and the last person exposed to novichok make a recovery in the short term but died badly a few years later, so we'll have to wait and see on that one.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/22/andrei-zheleznyakov-soviet-scientist-poisoned-novichok |
ASSuming of course, it was Novichok and not a false flag by someone with a vested interest in making Russia an enemy of the UK and EU.
When we were told about this attack, the "experts" were saying that Novichok was so deadly, that nobody survives it or at least all become vegetables after the slightest of contact. The fact the OPCW are very carefully neglecting to directly name the substance, tells me there's a good chance of more to this story than we're being told.
But then again, even if this was a ploy to demonise Russia by some form of institution, the speed at which the UK government pointed the finger at Russia, long before any evidence was available, hints to me that we'll never know the truth and the UK government were part of it, or certainly aware. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip Super Spammer
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Posted: 11:55 - 22 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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mpd72 wrote: |
You don't understand the word "question" then? |
My point was that despite the fact that people have replied to your "6 miles from..." point, you still keep repeating it. Unlike my question on Putin's rhetoric which has been repeatedly ignored. So I reserve the right to repeat it again and again and again
Is the reason why you have ignored it that it challenges your view of Putin in a way you can't explain?
Just in case you have forgotten the question I am referring to, what does Putin mean by "there is no such thing as an ex-KGB man" and "traitors will kick the bucket"? It goes to the heart of why people "just blame Russia". ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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Ste |
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Ste Not Work Safe
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chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip Super Spammer
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Posted: 12:26 - 22 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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Lord Percy wrote: | chickenstrip wrote: |
A question of scale perhaps. We at least try to avoid causing civilian casualties - yes, I do think our military commanders consider that seriously, and make the effort. It's something we can hold our politicians to account for to a degree, when we vote. Assad? Less so. Nobody to hold him to account. Putin? Depends on if you believe Russian elections are free and fair.
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Well this sounds like a classic case of Us vs Them, where Us is always morally superior to Them.
I've lost count of the amount of videos, images and stories I've seen about NATO troops actions in the middle east. Most famous examples would be:
AC130 gunship civilian casualties
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d9187af7e53386ac2fab5d6b2f194ec3-c
Quote: | It now ranks among one of the most high-profile U.S. strikes to result in civilian casualties in Afghanistan. In July 2002, a U.S. AC-130 fired on a wedding party, killing more than 40 and injuring more than 100 people in northern Helmand province |
Abu Ghraib Prison
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/AbuGhraibAbuse-standing-on-box.jpg
Admittedly the yanks appear to have been way worse, but there was this gem too:
Royal Marine guilty of Afghanistan murder
Quote: | It showed Marine A shooting the Afghan prisoner with a 9mm pistol, and saying: "There, shuffle off this mortal coil... It's nothing you wouldn't do to us."
He adds: "Obviously this doesn't go anywhere fellas. I just broke the Geneva Convention," |
I remember seeing loads of Facebook posts about this. Marine A was a hero, out risking his life in the theatre of war for our great nation. Lots of Help For Heroes stuff chucked around. People wanted him absolved because he was on our side.
Now how would all these things have been presented and received if they were done by an enemy?
Suddenly the chemical weapons stuff sounds a bit tit-for-tat to me, if it even happened the way the media says it did! |
None of which challenges my question of scale comment. In NATO actions, considering the overall number of operations carried out, the examples you refer to stand out as isolated incidents. Assad's actions show that it is the norm for there to be mass civilian casualties where his military are concerned. Civilians just don't come up on his radar at all.
Also note that our press and media are able to comment freely on such abuses of trust within our own military. I call that a good thing, as it is part of the process of holding people to account. If the odd one slips through that system...well, it doesn't make it ok, but it is comparatively rare.
Regarding chemical weapons attacks in Syria. They have not nearly been on the scale of Saddam Hussein's use in Halabja, but there is an international convention which outlaws their use. The convention could be scrapped, I suppose? Although I'm still not convinced of their having been deployed at Douma. ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip Super Spammer
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Posted: 12:37 - 22 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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Hmmm, what about ordinary Russian people in Russia though? That would be more interesting.
These questions are what we are discussing here, so your links offer little that is new to the discussion. Unless you want to pull out any individual points that you want to discuss, that haven't already been referred to here?
No doubt to mpd's disgust, I'll ask you the same question that remains unanswered by all those defending Russia here: what does Putin mean by "there is no such thing as an ex-KGB man", and "traitors will kick the bucket"? ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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Itchy |
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Itchy Super Spammer
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chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip Super Spammer
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Posted: 13:05 - 22 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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Itchy wrote: | chickenstrip wrote: | Also note that our press and media are able to comment freely on such abuses of trust within our own military. I call that a good thing, as it is part of the process of holding people to account. |
Does it though? Or is it a case of whoops got caught here. As loads of illegal things happen.
MP says lessons will be learned! People shrug and most of the time very little happens.
The only thing I can think of is Iraq Tony Blair subsequent governments went for a Parliamentary vote before any action was taken. The current PM broke this precedent with the recent actions.
It's why when people say rule of law in the UK it's sometimes doubtful. |
Oh, I fully concede that we're not perfect. What country is? What politician, in a position of power, anywhere in the world, is entirely trustworthy? But I think we do better than many. Including Russia and Syria. ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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Itchy |
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Itchy Super Spammer
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chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip Super Spammer
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Posted: 13:14 - 22 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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Itchy wrote: |
Oh I agree but there should at least be some consequences for wrong doing. |
I've no dispute with that.
Quote: | Even in the old days a wrong doer in a position of power was handed a bottle of whiskey and a loaded revolver. |
Free whiskey and firearms? I'm off to do some wrong! ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip Super Spammer
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Posted: 15:31 - 22 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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Ste wrote: | mpd72 wrote: | The fact the OPCW are very carefully neglecting to directly name the substance, tells me there's a good chance of more to this story than we're being told. |
Of course there's a huge amount more to it than what we're told and I don't think anyone is disputing that. |
Yes. In particular, I'd draw attention to point 12:
https://www.opcw.org/fileadmin/OPCW/S_series/2018/en/s-1612-2018_e_.pdf ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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Ste |
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Ste Not Work Safe
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Posted: 15:35 - 22 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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To draw attention to point 12, I'll copy and paste it.
"The name and structure of the identified toxic chemical are contained in the full classified report of the Secretariat, available to States Parties" |
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- Super Spammer
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chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip Super Spammer
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Posted: 15:48 - 22 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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Itchy wrote: |
The only thing I can think of is Iraq Tony Blair subsequent governments went for a Parliamentary vote before any action was taken. The current PM broke this precedent with the recent actions.
It's why when people say rule of law in the UK it's sometimes doubtful. |
Precedent, not law. Which is why some are calling for it to be made law, which to my mind sounds like a good idea on first examination, except I wonder if there might be circumstances where that would prove unwise? I'm not sure that this latest action would be an example of such circumstances - probably not. ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip Super Spammer
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Posted: 15:59 - 22 Apr 2018 Post subject: |
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mpd72 wrote: | Why is the actual name of the chemical used classified, even though Boris and May have been spouting it's name and alleged source for weeks?
The OPCW seem keen to say they confirmed the same findings as the British government, but still refrain from naming what the British government actually found.
If it really was of high purity, how come both Skirpal and his daughter survived? This whole thing stinks of a fix up. |
Well, we may never know. But if the full statement is available to "States Parties", those who act on these things presumably do know.
It seems to me the name "Novichok" is somewhat generic, and so may indeed not be reliable in statements of fact. But there have been mentions of individual agents within that term, A230, A234 etc. My guess would be one or more of those would be what actually get referred to in the report.
Your last question is another example of you repeating the same questions again and again and again, and has been addressed by others previously.
What does Putin mean by "there's no such thing as an ex-KGB man", and "traitors will kick the bucket"? ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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Ste |
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Ste Not Work Safe
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 5 years, 363 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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