A 125cc which needs work. What work?

[WmY]

Putative case:

A 125cc to be "done up" (according to "The Boy (TM)", who is currently 16 & short of cash), for a mount at age 17.

Possibility of tarting up the look, including artwork, to be taken into account. Oddly, scooters with their expansive surfaces, are derided.

So. Engine work needed, or "Engine OK, tatty appearence"?

I tend to the former. I'd rather sort out mechanics than finish. The Young Master, it seems, prefers a runner (yes, I know...) that needs refinishing.

Any useful thoughts?

[Tamsin]

If it runs and rides but looks rough then at least you know you will be able to take it down the road without huge expense and extensive diagnosis time.

If it looks good but doesnt run, then whats the point??

[Rogerborg]

Is this a hypothetical, or a thetical bike?

Has his Lordship put down money on it?
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[Teflon-Mike]

Ambiguity?
That's my first thought.

Beyond that... just needs a little work for test... in my experience, translates as "Its dead, scrap, beyond salvation...."
Anything that is likely top appeal to a teenager, will likely have been ragged to crud by a succession of them before him, and sold on on the notion that it just needs a bit of tarting up, and a £5 rattle can from halfrauds will automatically result in a show winning paint job like Fast and furiouse.... [shrug] and its probably already had a few that have failed to cover the skuffs or rust... and wobbly headrace bearings, and knackered brakes, and bald tyres, etc etc etc

So... is there a real bike in all this anywhere? Has anyone actually seen it? sold presumeably accross the play-ground... is the price laughable.... or very laughable... or positively deleriouse?!

Dad and Lad projects?
Needs a pretty patient (and probably rich!) Dad, and a rather less than typically beligerent Lad to stand any chance.....
If mine.... I'd say, well, there's plenty of scrap in the yard already, you know where the tools are, go for it kid!!! and leave him too it....
And maybe warn my MOT man of what's coming.....
(And ask him for video of when he presents the fail sheet!)

IF he cant afford the bike to start with.... how the heck does he expect to afford all the bits he'll need to do a fixer-upper; THEN if the fixer upper ever gets fixed; how does he expect to afford the insurance... and dont say 'Momfleee"... I would NOT be countersigning the credit agreement for a monthly plan, under ANY circumstances! And given he'd be paying probably 30% more on the installements, if he cant afford the policy to start with, how the heck does he expect to pay a third more than he already cant afford, on 'the plan'? A-N-D afford to still put petrol in the thing to get anywhere, along the way?

I'd expect to either end up hands deep in pockets as well as up to the elbows in oil, funding and fueling his fantacies to STILL get moaned at it was MY fault that his 18th birthday had just rolled by, and this thing still hadn't got it's ticket, and what a bad dad I was for letting him believe he could have a bike on his 17th... or to end up with a pile of prettily painted scrap in my shed, I had probably still paid most for, and got my arms covered in oil to the elbows, a-n-d be given grief over for letting the boy down, and making all this mess...

AKchully... that's not far from a reality not a million miles from me left behind by daughter, inspired by Snowie's super-dream, thinking to do the same with one she tore to bits... that is almost prettily painted, in primer, in bits, in the shed, two years after she decided that boys, boys cars and parties were slightly more fun.... but still... more akchully.. I think Fizzer has still got one of these..... an even older T2, if I recall... I wonder if its a CB125 thing, or a daughter thing?!?
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[kgm]

If the goal is to spend less money buying a project - don't. You'll often spend more long term by buying a dog to fix than by just buying a reasonable runner in the first place. You won't get a long lasting paint job description rattle cans either. If cheap transport is the goal then just save the money until there's enough to buy a half decent YBR.

If you're doing it for the sake of the project then fair enough, just be prepared to spend a little.money on it. The cost of all the little bits you'll need soon mounts up.

[stinkwheel]

Get a tatty runner. Give it a thorough service. Do NOT fix the cosmetics, You can't see them when your riding. Punt it on again in a year for the same as you paid for it.

Alternative is to get something crashed and faired that has readily available cheap pattern chinese fairings.

Get him on the road, spend the money he would have spent tarting up a learner bike on the next bike or lessons/test as appropriate (although I believe test isn't all that great an option at 17 these days?).

A tatty learner bike will be worth the same this time next year unless he blows it up. An amateur tarted up tatty learner bike will be worth the same. MIGHT be worthwhile getting something with a blown engine and bunging a second hand one in it, there again, it might be the root of all manner of headaches.

Father/Son working on a bike often does not end well. You are clearly approaching this idea from different directions as it is and you don't even have a bike yet. Probably best to get him a reasonable runner and leave the cosmetics to him.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[WmY]

Well.

If it looks good but doesn't run? 6 months to fix it.

If it looks crap but runs? Will it continue to run? Is "the crap look" going to be acceptable to a 17-year-old?

That's why I'd prefer to get something that doesn't go, unless the rest of it is in poor condition.

Yes, I know, something could be bought and sprayed up, but there's a lot of preparation and I'd rather take the easy option and rebuild an engine or whatever than spray up a frame & parts, which is IMO an unpleasant job.

Yes, it's a "Dad & Lad" project. I expect we'll find an experimental POS & I'll do the mechanics/education & he'll scrape it & spray it up.

[Ste]

If you want a 125 non runner project then there's plenty of those to choose from.

Many of those will have been bought as a project by optimistic 16yr olds to fix up before they turned 17.

If you know what you're doing rebuilding a 125 that's been 50% fucked due to lack of maintenance and 50% fucked due to kids trying to make it go faster then go for it.

A bike that looks crap but runs is more acceptable to a 17 year old than a bike that's an unfinished project in the garage.

If the objective is for him to have his own transport then you should buy a bike that's running.

[Teflon-Mike]

The frame on most bikes is usually pretty hidden; hassles in that is trying to strip by hand and rotary wire, where all the nadgery brackets and crevices start to denude wire brushes and skin knuckles.

Sand-Blasting and poweder coating, then become very much more apealing.... and you run the risk of over restoring.... cos once you have nice shiney like new frame... seems a let down not to do the rest of it to same standard.

Mechanicals? Rather doing an engine than a petrol-tank... err... yeah... the 125 twins I do are probably one of the more convoluted and intricate to tackle. Two-stokes, with water-cooling and power-valves more esoteric, I think. But cutting to the chase, heart of the engine is teh crank, which is usually a pressed up 3 journal job, on most, and certainly older 125's.

If crank not completely tatered, it's probably a runner, if bad one, and you can spend eons tryig to fault find all the issues and niggles. trying to dodge total tear-down. If a non-runner? still likely to spend eons doing everything and anything to dodge total tear-down!!! cost of getting a crank rebuilt properly, with new bearings and con-rods can be astonomical; or you end up leaving it with that chap that's been playing with Matchless 350's since the dark-ages.. scratching his head... wondering if you'll get a call to ever pick it up, or attend his wake!

A few models you can get new cranks for; and oft cheaper than trying to get one rebuilt. SEE-GEEE is screaming at me......

A-N-D of everything out there you could consider for Dad&Lad deal.... if it wasn't for the stack of 125 super-Dreams and the half un-built one in the shed That, I THINK would have to be my top-choice.

CG's, command half sensible money on the open market; every-one has heard of them, thier 'legend' is enormouse, and as a project base, plenty out there in pretty dire state that might make a 'good' project with plenty of learning to be had in it, that have been tinkered or un-tinkered to death on the legend that they are 'No-Maintenance' machines... not 'Low-Maintenance' ones... and that you "Cant go wrong with a CG"

Mention the chinks..... cheap tat.... but lots of it around... an awful lot CG based.

Old chinks can be picked up for peanuts, making them look like a good project candidate; parts are plentiful and cheap on ebay, if you are a bit savvy about the deal, and you stand pretty good chance of being able to do one..... BUT... cheap and undesirable to start with... even done to concourse standard, never going to be particularly valuable or stand chance of being worth even a fraction of the cash sunk into the thing.....

Genuine CG..... as much work to do to see to Moment-Of-Truth... all the cheap e-bay bits for the chinks 'fit'... and its a bike that sells easily and for good money..... so why put the cash and effort into a fly-by-night chinky brand.... spend the little extra to get a CG to start with, and have something at the end, that's worth more of the time hassle and money sunk in it..... you can ride out the value from, and not be making excuses for the unheard of badge on the tank, grinning smugly , "But this is a REAL See-Geee"

On that sort of basis..... It would be hard to pander to teen-dreams, picking a two-smoke, or something newer and more posey, to make life harder for yourselves, and less ecconoimical or viable.

See-Gee it has to be.... would the lad go for it?

If so... then doesn't matter how bad a state its in to start with... and probably the worse it is the better, as it gives you more to do in the doing, and more 'learning' is thats what the gigs mostly about.

Motor, bar the air-cooled 2T singles, about as simple as they get, and new barel & piston sets can be procured off the bay for as little as £30, cranks complete and built up about £80, new heads, new valves, new rockers, and TOP of my list of I was doing one, new tappets... tappet ket and lock-nut tool.. probably lock-nuts too..... you can be pretty sure you can fully recondition a CG motror and tpo good standard, for not an awful lot of money... but more important for Dad&Lad project... also in not too great a time.

With a little forward planning, getting all the bits together ahead of time; you can probably put an old CG lump on the bench, tear it down and have something ready to go back in the frame, rebuilt like new, in a weekend so lad see's things moving and dont bugger off bored!

THAT.. is likely the biggest sticking point... they love paint... dont so much like hours of paint prep.... doesn't look like they have got anywhere... then it 'happens' in pretty short order when you come to stick on colour coat.... and then the rest drags out, and they loose interest....

And, in my experience, the big 'bore-chore' where they'll loose interest is the wiring... especially if "Oy-Dee-Uz" are given thier head, and (see the Pup Project!} and smurf-phone chargers and brackets and LED blinkycators are allowed to steer progress... or lack of!!! Then the 'detailing' where straightening bent bracket plates and tapping out chewed captive nuts, will start to grind, and progress will seemingly come to a full stop... and arguments are likely to start when an ingnition switch or something is put on upside down, with the wrong screws.......

On which score.... motor vs paint is probably a pretty small niggle in the grander scheme.....

B-U-T....

Genuine CG has to be the benchmark. Its the one you stand most chance of seeing to completion, as its the one best supported for parts; its also the one most likely to be worth more of the money and labour sunk into it, and on the 'cultlegend' that they will be less apauled at using when done.... whilsy also standing good chance of getting insurance.

But... for Dad & Lad deal... the most significant part of the project, IS that relationship, and not coming to blows over it, and mucking in to get it done, and along the way, most important ingredient of any project, is keeping the momentum going so the project doesn't stall dead... and with teen-partner on the job, that means chopping the job up so that they 'see' in Play-Station surreal-time, 'achievement' and can imagine riding the thing next week... even if its more likely next month, or next spring.... but along the way, they get big shiney chunks they can point at and admire and say "I did that! It gonna be great!!"

And knowing the pitfalls and hassles aloing the way.... my advice:-

1/ dont try and cheap-skate on your base bike.
It will take just as much time and hassle and money to fix up a cheap chink as a genuine CG... and the saving of perhaps £1oo-£2oo on the project base, by the time you have chucked, all the time and money it needs at it, will be pretty insignificant, A-N-D... the more expensive bike as a scrapper, will almost certainly be worth far more of what you have invested as a runner. so its a folls ecconomy to make life hard for yourself and not get as much from the deal, or even give yourself the better chance to keep momentum going.

2/ Time, Money, SPACE....
It will almost certainly take five times the time you anticipate... more if working with a partner you are trying to 'teach' along the way. Dont expect it to happen in a hurry, and back to choosing donor.... there's no such thing as an 'easy fix', when you start digging down, you will find problems to tackle, and there's little to say that what looks, on the surface like it dont need much, will need any less than something you can see needs a heck of a lot, when you go view.... actually likely the converse... bike that looks an absolute shed when you view and you can take away with an already started hit-list, rather than having to make one up as you unbolt stuff and find horrors you never expected. DONT expect anything to be 'easy', and dont expect not to have to worry about something... you almost certainly will. and all adds time to the task.
Money..... I was once told by old wizzened biker with grey beard and affliction for italian mopeds (?!?!?!?!?)... "Not a lot in this world cant be fixed by the expedience of applying large chunks of cold hard cash at it.... this means that the biggest problem.... is getting your hands on large chunks of cold hard cash to chuck at stuff!"... he weren't wrong!!!
The budget is almost garanteed to get overrun, so if there are any tips to this... dont get over enthusiastic at the start buying stuff you can see is 'obviousely needed' like tyres.... you dont 'need' them til the thing is ready for Moment-Of-Truth, and can be fitted the night before... leaving perhaps £100 in the pot to tackle other necessities along the way.... a-n-d.. if the project stalls.... its £100 of wasted rubber sat perishing under the scrap, when you have given up..... so curb enthusiasm to spend at the start, and buy as little as you really need as you go.
Give contingency and margin for over-spend... it WILL happen... and if you dont have the cash to spare, project stalls, and is that much harder to get started again, especially if Lad looses heart in the hiatis, and you are left to pick up the pieces... see comment on daughters duper-seam!
SPACE... "Well its only a little motorbike.... takes up barely any more room than his push-bike..... we can do this on the patio, keep it under a tarp..."" Yeah... amazing how much space just ONE little motorbike can occupy.... especially if the frame is hanging from a gazebo, the paint drying, whilst the engine is in the kitchen on top of the washing machine with someone chucking the contents of the tool box all over the shed, looking for the chain breaker.....
You need space, and you need to keep it well ordered, freezer bags, stakaboxes and hint... old fashioned tie on lables and a water-proof marker to keep tabs and tidy on it all!!!
A-N-D you will inevitably have the little niggles of oily light switches, and hand prints on the bath-room door, and the kettle... and fridge... and toilet handle... and... and... and the inevitable moaning woman, grumbling about oily finger-prints!!!

The cleaning up and tidying up, and can you get this off MY freezer... all adds to the time... as well as the space, and when 'that' woman has found you have used up all the oven cleaner under the sink degreasing the engine cases, and 3/4 of her washing powder soaking the chain guard, and all the washing up liquid cleaning hands after she's moaned about the fingerprints...... expect more time... being sent to the supermarket.... and more money.... buying replacement oven cleaner and washing powder and washing up liquid, oh and while you are there.... on top of the super-market buquet you feel compelled to buy in apology... that will likely garner a grimace cos obviousely not a 'special' thought... like climbing kilamanjaro in a black leotard with a box of chocolates, all because the lady.....

You need a healthy dose of 'realism' from the beginning, and not just from major participants, like Lad & Dad, but everyone else in the household.... to avoid or soften the inevitable conflicts, like when mum comes to find some new cloths pegs in the garage and arbiterily tips all the nuts and bolts and brackets lad was sorting out into one stakabox....

And contingency to make space, and time, and find the money, to keep that all important 'momentum' going......

Can sort of make you empathise with schoolteachers a bit, actually.... and if project started in the holidays, and they expect to be riding creation to first day of school... the usual euphoria of "Schools Back!" can be rather elevated at the idea that they'll be some-one elses problem in a couple of weeks, and you'll not be spending your day worrying what carnage they have wreaked in the garage with your tools when you get home!

Like I said..... bike at the beginning is but tiny part of the deal, and probably doesn't bear an awful lot of worrying about, IF you hold a line over basic common sense and dont pick something 'too' silly, to give yourself best chance, with open eyes and open mind and open wallet of whats ahead.....

And a CG is probably your best bet to be able to get it going, keep it going and see it through..... and not have so many frustrations along the way, or big expenses, or major stall-points, and on that basis, that little 'extra' upfront can make big savings further down the line..... I mean, IF it dont get done..... and only about 1 in 10 projects do.... matters little whether you have an unfinished CG or unfinished Jailing, or unfinished GP100, or three 125 superdreams sat in the garage not working, takling up space, does it?

BUT thrust of the message is dont think to stint at the start... the cost of the base bike will be insigifiant in the all-up, the work much the same, the hassle much the same, and all far more then you ever anticipate, so its not really worth making a big deal out of... there will be far bigger fish to fry down the line.

A-N-D has to be said, be warned; if the stimuls here is to make a 'cheap' 125, cos everything taxed, tested and almost road-worthy, is beyond budget.... look long and hard at the accounts.

Saying 'No' at the start buys a lot less hassles and wastes a lot less money. Digging deep and 'lending' the extra to help them get something ready to ride... even knowing you probably wont see a peny of it back, is likely a lot less wasted money, and certainly hassle and heartache along the way.

Eg; if they have £500 and cant afford anything with an MOT.... and insist they can get the insurance on 'the plan'.. you, personally will likely waste less money, loaning them the £250 they need to get a scrag end of life YBR with a ticket, A-N-D paying the insurance all upfront for them, in their name, and not being left with a credit plan they never pay for, but you do, that costs 30% more in the long run

For the learning? For the Dad & Lad 'bonding'.... short tern, a 125 has a two year life=--span, and you do have the risk that the project will stall, and generate more contension than it does build bonds.

Its a horrible age, for both parent and sprog; they have spent five years at 2ndary school, and been given all these ideas of all they can do when they grow up.... they want all the privilidges of being able to ride a motorbike or drive a car, or go sown pup, or have parties, but they dont really want the resposibility, and they resent mummy and daddy aren't paying for it all like when they wanted a teenie beanie like all thier freinds in the playground......

A-N-D a motorbike restoration is no short term commitmemt.... let alone the financial one. Even without the potential direct hassles of a project, like finding, a crack in the frame, or a knackered crank, or a flasher unit full of water, and a lamp switch with a broken spring.....

Therre are FAR too many other pitfalls in 'life' from wanting to go play XBox round thier mates and have a sneaky joint, to sneaking in a nightclub and spewing all over the taxi at the end of the night; ALL to impinge on the project and "Yeah later OWLDE MA-AN! I toweld ya! Jimmi's goht a new VR paddle stick shift for iz Xstation tewny seven.. we gonna av a parteee! I towld ya, I'll doowit tomorrrah! CHILL, yull giv yuself heart attack at yurage!"

On which score... fuckem! If they haven't got the money.... let em learn.... the hard way.... go buy bike YOU want to do.... do that, FOR YOU.... if between hangovers they stiucki head round garage door and show interest.... you might involve them.... and maybe, if its something that could be A2 complient? Maybe you'll let them 'borrow' when 19 and got a licence... and then its your bike, you dont mind spending the cash on it, or putting in the time, and you dont make the arguments to be blamed for thier stinking life and told your too old to uinderstand..... well... so often.... maybe.... possibly.... we hope! ! ABD when they see shiney start to happen... maybe some incxentive for them to get off thier arse and go get a licence to prove thier iunterest and intent, so they can 'borrow' your baby when done.... if noty? You got something you can get some pleasure from.... not a load of heartache hassle and wasted cash for a shed full of unfinished 'bits'....

Just a thunk..... but worth some.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[Nobby the Bastard]

Grrr666 has a 125 that 1)looks half decent and 2)has just passed an MOT and 3)runs well....
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha:"Remember this simple rule - scooters are for men who like to feel the breeze on their huge, flapping cunt lips."
Sprint ST 1050

[johnsmith222]

Probably better just getting something which is in reasonable condition, and only needs very minor things and maintenance done to it.

Quite often, the cheapest paintjob you can get is a different bike.

[stevo as b4]

^This above 100%.

An old 125 that has a mechanical train wreck of issues for you to fix, will be fucked in every other aspect too. Bet ya it's also been dropped, had bits nicked off it and swapped around, the wiring will have been played with and it'll just be fucked, fucked and trash. 100% full resto project only once you've had a decent look at it.

You stand a far better chance of buying something newish and modern that's a good runner and has done low miles, but has been dropped and had all the pointy plastic bits snapped off or scratched to hell.

You might find a nearly new low mileage Chinq that's holed the sump, or run out of oil, dropped a valve etc. But this kind of work will be far more expensive than a cheap paintjob, some plastic welding or a set of second hand panels and graphics etc.

Buy a good runner everytime over a supposedly tidy dead bike.

[WmY]

Hm. Lots of "Cat C" bikes on offer from dealers through ebay. Begs the question "Why don't they fix them then?". Maybe expense & "Cat C" on sale.

[BusterGonads]

Teflon-Mike wrote:

<<A few models you can get new cranks for; and oft cheaper than trying <<to get one rebuilt. SEE-GEEE is screaming at me......>> <<See-Gee it has to be.... would the lad go for it?>> <<B-U-T.... Genuine CG has to be the benchmark. Its the one you stand most chance of seeing to completion, as its the one best supported for parts; its also the one most likely to be worth more of the money and labour sunk into it, and on the 'cultlegend' that they will be less apauled at using when done.... whilsy also standing good chance of getting insurance.>> <<And a CG is probably your best bet to be able to get it going, keep it going and see it through.....>>

There is a lot of sense talked in that post.

Great little bike. Eminently mendable and cheap to get the bits.

Bought one a month ago to play about on and I've done a thousand miles on it already. Petrol costs are positively funny. I'm laughing all the way to the counter when I go to pay. Same when I bought a new brake lever on ebay after I toppled the damned thing over off its centre stand while I was leaning over it and putting the chain guard back on. Stupid, stupid error, but very cheaply fixed. You can get everything for it for bugger all money.