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uneven brake pad wear

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Courier265
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: uneven brake pad wear Reply with quote

CBF500 ABS

Ever since I've had this bike I've noticed every time I change the pads
that one pad is worn out and the other still has plenty of life left.
SO I'm throwing away one decent pad every time, I'm using Honda OE
at the moment.

The pads need replacing soon, should I continue with the Honda OE or
try another brand of pad? is this problem got to with ABS?

The rear pads wear evenly but I don't use the rear for heavy braking.

Any Useful thoughts?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 20:44 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The calliper has seized.
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Courier265
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PostPosted: 20:46 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
The calliper has seized.


nothing wrong with the caliper, my mechanic does my brakes.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 21:03 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Courier265 wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
The calliper has seized.


nothing wrong with the caliper, my mechanic does my brakes.


Not sure what bizare aplication of logic leads you either of these statements TBH... but still.

You have one good brake pad, one worn one. SO.. for one pad to wear faster than the other, that pad MUST be being pushed harder against the disc. No?
You have a caliper that pushes pads against disc. that caliper can be wither fixed, with two pistons each pushing the pads independently against disc, or 'floating' with the caliper moving sideways on pins as one or a pair of pistons in one side only push from the front and pull the caliper from the back.

Either way... if one pad is worn, one isn't... the side with more wear is getting more pressure.

That means, that if a fixed caliper, that side piston must be 'sticking' more than the other. If a floating caliper. that the caliper isn't floating and letting the other side get pulled by it against disc.

THAT is how brakes work.

ABS... all that does is relieve some hydraulic pressure to reduce brake pad pressure and hence braking force when the electrickery sense the wheel coming close to stop turning, so that the brake doesn't lock it.

Shouldn't have effall influence on uneven brake pad wear... that has to be down to either a sticking caliper or sticking piston.

Regardless of who services your bike, or why.... for whatever bizarre reason you believe, in the face of presenting obviouse 'fault' in uneven brake pad wear, that, for some random reason, the caliper, 'must' be OK!?!?!?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 21:05 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jezuz mutherfucking christ, a Tef post that is succinct and also puts the OP in his place....
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Evil Hans
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PostPosted: 21:17 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Courier265 wrote:
nothing wrong with the caliper, my mechanic does my brakes.


Then why are you asking us?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 21:26 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Courier265 wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
The calliper has seized.


nothing wrong with the caliper, my mechanic does my brakes.


I suspect you need a new mechanic...
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bacon
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PostPosted: 21:30 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Courier265 wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
The calliper has seized.


nothing wrong with the caliper, my mechanic does my brakes.


Maybe ask him why one brake pad is wearing so much quicker than the other then if you want to dismiss advice from the good folk here.. Ask him why he hasn't been doing what you've been paying him to do? Or does he simply change the pads and you assume he's looking after them in the process?

It's not difficult to do yourself by the way, grab a tub of copper grease, some red rubber grease, an old toothbrush and plenty of brake cleaner
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Courier265
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PostPosted: 22:22 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evil Hans wrote:
Courier265 wrote:
nothing wrong with the caliper, my mechanic does my brakes.


Then why are you asking us?


I wish I hadn't now....

Sadly my mechanic (for over 20 years) is on his holiday's so I can't ask him..
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johnsmith222
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PostPosted: 22:43 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Courier265 wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
The calliper has seized.


nothing wrong with the caliper, my mechanic does my brakes.


Brake calipers can sieze up pretty regularly. It doesn't matter who does your brakes, your caliper is likely not operating 100% as it should.

Also, if your mechanic has done your brakes relatively recently and they have started to sieze (e.g. 6 months ago but ridden through winter and pistons not cleaned regularly), it doesn't mean he has done anything wrong when he did them the last time.


Last edited by johnsmith222 on 22:44 - 12 Jun 2018; edited 2 times in total
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redeem ouzzer
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PostPosted: 22:43 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your mechanic is Smiler and I claim my five ponds.
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WmY
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PostPosted: 23:28 - 12 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Courier265 wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
The calliper has seized.


nothing wrong with the caliper, my mechanic does my brakes.


But you said that you change the pads?

It sounds like: take the thing to bits. Clean it out. Put it back together.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 05:30 - 13 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evil Hans wrote:
Then why are you asking us?


Courier265 wrote:
I wish I hadn't now....

Sadly my mechanic (for over 20 years) is on his holiday's so I can't ask him..


You wish you hadn't asked a question, when the answers aren't what you want to hear, or make you look a bit foolish.....

Yes, I can see why you wish you hadn't asked.... doesn't mean that the answers, though, are 'wrong' nor that the question didn't need answering.

Mecahnic, of twenty years.... I have no idea yet again, what train of illogic makes you think that this is in any way pertinant. Especially when I am still a little confused by who actually does or did the work, when you say that you have to replace the pads, but your mechanic deals with the calipers?

If you change the pads... part of that job, IF you check the Haynes etc, is NOT just pulling the pads and walloping on new ones, BUT checking that the pistons are clean and free, float pins greased, etc etc etc.....

So... who does the job.... you or mechanic?

And if mechanic given bike to 'service' told you have changed the pads.... why would he even look at the calipers? you have just told him that YOU have done that....

So who hasn't done job properly, for there to be obviously overlooked fault there? You or mechanic?

Bottom line, cut to the chase; whoever did or didn't do what; YOU have a sticky caliper; brakes need properly overhauling by SOMEONE to sort the uneven brake pad wear...

I would suggest you get the Haynes manual and a tub of coppaslip; and if the calipers are anything like the ones on other Hondas I have worked on, bung in an order to DaveSilvers, for new pad clips, new pad pins, and new float grommets & new bleed nipple.. pull the calipers off completely; clean, properly, degrease properly, check the pistons properly, check the seals propely, wallop back on with coppaslip in apropriate places, flush theough the system with new DOT 4, then beleed.

THEN you get someone to pump the brake lever whilst you watch what the caliper does, and see how it works.

Then, periodically repeat inspection cleaning and greasing; as guide about twice a year, more if used through winter, more still if mileage warrants it..... NOT just when brake pads start to grind or look a bit thin. This is the sport of job that should be done every couple or oil changes or so, not just when the MOT comes round, maybe, plenty of meat on the pads so dont bother till we hear grinding....
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BusterGonads
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PostPosted: 09:23 - 13 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:

Then, periodically repeat inspection cleaning and greasing; as guide about twice a year, more if used through winter, more still if mileage warrants it..... NOT just when brake pads start to grind or look a bit thin. This is the sport of job that should be done every couple or oil changes or so, not just when the MOT comes round, maybe, plenty of meat on the pads so dont bother till we hear grinding....


Reading this makes me wonder how my car brakes continue to function perfectly year after year without attention other than the annual service and MOT where I think they only get looked at and left. I've had forty thousand miles out of brake pads on my Octavia and not a touch of attention. They just work.

What is it about motor cycle manufacturing that makes bits like this so crap? When you think of it, it isn't as if bikes were sold dead cheap is it? Compare the manufacturing and materials content to the average car and then compare reliability and price. I think bikers are being shafted by the brands they trust.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 10:32 - 13 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not that bike brakes are cheap, it's more to do with car brakes tending to be one feck off piston with sliding calliper, which is a lot more reliable but less effective.

Combined with the fact that car brakes tend to have much more effective dust seals (weight and size aren't an issue) and the fact that they are generally protected from the elements better by the wheel, you end up with better reliability.

Stick a four piston calliper on a car and the seizure rate would go up accordingly.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 18:48 - 13 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

When was the last time you took the wheel off your car? How rusty was the disc where not rubbed by pad? and how effoff thick was it?

Car discs tend to be iron, which rusts notoriousely fast... and looks horrible, but hidden behind a pressed wheel, they aren't going to be seen, so not a 'cosmetic' component. On a bike, wheel wont hide disc, so it becomes a cosmetic component.

Look at old Guzzi's or Nortons; iron disc goes red rusty over night. But the sorter metal has better coefficient of friction, so you do get better braking force from them for less hydraulic pressure, and they aren't so prone to fade or warping, because the iron diddipated the heat better.

Bikes tend to weigh a lot less. My 75o is aprox 1/4 ton, and is a big bike, Most cars, even small ones will typically weigh twice that or more, and my range rover, is 8x as heavy.

Kenetic energy, is Mass x Velocityy squared; so to reduce speed, you have to 'dump' that energy. Heavier car, will for the same speed have however many times it is heavy, the amount of energy to dump through the brakes. But it has four brakes to dump it through rather than two.

And, because of the weight of the car, theres a lot more metal to absorb that heat energy by conduction, before radiating it away.

More, the brake has to be attatched to the wheel, so 'unsprung' mass on the end of the suspension. Typical car weigs around a ton, there's a lot more mass on top of the springs than there is on the end of them, so the sprung to unsprung mass ratio is pretty good to start with. Bikes are around 1/4 the mass, and the ratio of sprung to unsprung is far less in the bikes favour before you begin, so you cant afford to either add any unnecessary weight to the brake.

Discs... on a bike, tend to be very thin, and made of stainless steel, to keep them light weight and keep them from going rusty. On bikes they tend not to last as long as they do on cars where made of iron, and a big thick chunk of the stuff, they are heavy, and can last 1oo's of 1ooo of miles, before they wear out. Bike discs, thin and shiney, dont last anywhere near as many miles, and they are prone to warping, and are a service replaceable part, you can expect to last... maybe 2oK miles, rather than perhaps 6oK or more.

All in, car brakes can afford a lot of 'Duplo' mechanics; they can be bigger, heavier, more robust, and far less 'pretty'. Hence cheaper to make, cheaper to make to a standard, and a performance.

The 'floating caliper' common on motorbikes; one rigid and fairly light alloy caliper, with a single cylinder holding a single piston, that when pushed against the disc by the hydraulic pressure, pulls the oposite pad against the other side of the disc by pulling the caliper against it, whilst the caliper slides on pins.

Only one heavy piston, means its lighter. The caliper doesn't need to be so physically big, and can be made a bit prettier, without being so heavy, and it can similarly be made stronger to react the forces.

One piston, and one cylinder, means that it only has one precission seal, and only one hole to be preccission bored, and one piston to be precission turned, and only pone piston and seal to be assembled critically, its half the price to make as well as half the weight.

All for the only drawback that it has to have floating mountings; which yes wear, and yes can crud up and sieze, adding to the service ops.

See comments on it being in the Haynes manuel for when brake pads are changed.... cleaning and inspecting caliper and mounts is in that service op.... and done as and when specified, is small added labour to the job, to keep brakes in tip~top.... and that is small price compared to the savings of using the arrangement.

Hassle comes.... when folk go, "Well, I never had to do this on my skoda!"

No they didn't... but skoda isn't Honda, it isn't even a motorbike, and its apples and oranges thinking, where the 'expectation' it aught to be just like the car is applied as presumption before the job, and then rather hard to explain after, as all above, just trying to get past that apples is not oranges.

And it is a bain of the persuit these days; where so many riders now, start the persuit, not as teenagers used to a push bike, but later in life after probably a decade or more of car ownership, and they have ingrained car driver attitudes and expectations of the bike, which they expect to work like the car or washing machine, not a fishing reel or multigym, not designed or built as an every day item.

And see 'disc brake'.. and go "Oooh, thats just like on my Saxo! I can do a pad change! why pay mechanic?" And dont read the haynes, cos it looks simple, it looks logical, and yup, they swap the pads, but noting else... and at best only do half the job, at worse completely cock it up.

Did you know that most brake faults occur after brake pad swaps?

Even on cars!

Most common reason for this is DIYer comes along, pulls the pins, pulls the old pads, tryies to get new pads into gap where old ones came from, reaslises the pistions are too far out, so starts pushing them back in to the caliper with a tyre iron, screwdriver or GClamp.

Pistons, stiuck out in the elements however long it has taken for pad to wear out, are covered in crud, and rust and often pitted or have flakey crome. Shoving them back into the caliper, then takes the crud with them, and puts the pitted flakey portion of the piston against the seal, and the brakes start to stick or worse leak, as crud gets begind the seals, pitting starts chewing them up, and then, what does owner say? Well, I dont know WHY! I only changed the pads a week ago!" when THAT is exactly 'why'.

They do that with the simpler duplo mechanics of car brakes... so little wonder they do it with the more intricate design and lighter mechanics of bike brakes.....

But, comes down to apples and oranges thinking....

As to the manufacturers, making the brakes 'so crap' on bikes? well, they dont... this is entirely down to the mechanics and owner expectations.

In manufacture, bikes is expensive to build. And these days, you look at a typical four cylinder bike, it is almost as complicated as a car.

It has a four cylinder engine, like a car, it usually has a double overhead camshaft, like a car, it usually has 16 valves, like a car, it has water cooling like a car; there are as many bits, they take as much putting together, and they take as much making as for a car.... but more... they are smaller, tolerences have to be tighter, more care and attension is nedeed, they are like a Swiss watch, compared to a bedside alarm clock.

May only have half the wheels, but that is about as far as the ecconomies go; there's three brake calipers on my 75o.. its only one less than on my Range Rover, you cant 'scale' the ecconomics on the simple arathmatic of the weight or the number of wheels or number of seats to make comparison between cars and bikes... they just dont compare.

A~N~D.... you have the different uses. Cars, generally, are household goods, utility artificats, that sell in large numbers to every household like washing machines. Theres an exxonomy of scale provided by the market, whilst pretty general limits are applied to thier use.

Typical family car like a Skoda isn't bought with any great expectation that it will go as fast as a ferarri or handle like a Lotus, and few buyers will even try. It gets them to work every morning, it hauls the shopping back from tescos.

Bikes? Far more often now are sold as sporting goods; like fishing rods, or squash rackets or nike trainers. Buyers expectations are far more concerned with the performance, and the look, and they aren't really so bothered about how many miles it does between oil changes, they will likely not do many, and they probably wont do them themselves anyway.

Which gives more apples and oranges, and in the design office, an engioneer jumping up and down yelling "Yes, but it lacks serviceability!" will quickly get over ruled, first by the marketing man, saying "Stiff that, they want SPEED!" and the accountant saying "Oh no, we have to watch the bottom line, who's going to pay for it!"

So the brakes on modern bikes, and uiffering the constant attension demanded by a pair of fully floating Nissins on a cost~cutting old Honda, 75o.... they are a damn GOOD bit of design... as far as meeting or exceeding customer expectations of cost and performance,., and oooh.. they squeek... HOW MUCH? Oh well, I suppose thats not SOO bad for what they have to do.

There's little wrong with the brakes, or thier design, its almost entirely down to the owners and thier expectations, and apples and oranges thinking trying to make parallels to cars, that just do not hold.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:02 - 13 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Jezuz mutherfucking christ, a Tef post that is succinct and also puts the OP in his place....

I'll take your word for it.

But, yes, DelBoy mechanic, seized caliper (or seized pistons if not slidey caliper).
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