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Motor insurance to cover offroad - Vnucked

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arry
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PostPosted: 12:11 - 29 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

One further factor is also non insurance company driven - government have loaded the rate of insurance premium tax by 100% in the past 2 years.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 18:20 - 30 Jul 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:
So what's the protection you claim? Does that mean anyone can make money issuing motor insurance policies? Why haven't you done it, then, if it's so guaranteed and protected?


The 'hikes' are based on the claims inflation factor of the Ogden reform of discount rate, which has been widely contested and lobbied against by the insurance industry because of the adverse affect on premiums paid by customers:
http://pwc.blogs.com/press_room/2017/02/ogden-rate-change-pwc-comments-on-impacts-for-motor-insurance-pricing.html

It was set (badly) by the MoJ in absolute contradiction to the wishes of insurers.


I have not set myself up as an insurance company as I do not have the capital to fund it. As you most probably know.

If the insurance industry is so Up in Arms about government adjustments why do they not pass this information on the the punters?

We all know the government is bankrupt and use all means to claw back tax.

Is the insurance industry is the new Sheriff of Nottingham?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:42 - 04 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

BUMP.

The Vnucking continues apace, it seems, with the EU backtracking on their backtracking on exempting motorscootersports from being covered by insurance policies.

MCIA are bawwing that it will mean an end to bike sports. On my reading, that's the opposite of what will happen. If all policies have to cover racing use, then that's brilliant news for trackday heroes, but the rest of us will end up paying for them spazzing each other.
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stephen_o
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PostPosted: 14:47 - 04 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The solution is what we voted for - A hard brexit
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:03 - 15 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

News from the Motorcycle Action Group (MAG) wrote:

Off-road racing and riding could be banned unless YOU act

This version: 2018 06 08 Embargo: IMMEDIATE

The Motorcycle Action Group has backed the Motor Cycle Industry Association’s attack on a European Commission edict that could end motorcycle sport.
MAG is urgently appealing to riders across the UK to contact their Member of Parliament and help prevent the effective banning of competitive, off-road riding of all kinds in the United Kingdom.

‘The threat comes from a European Union Directive,’ explains MAG’s Director of Communications & Public Affairs, Lembit Öpik. ‘It would require all mechanically propelled vehicles to get full third-party motor insurance to cover injury, damage and loss, on public and private roads or land. By changing what’s called the ‘Motor Insurance Directive’ (MID), it could end competitive riding in the UK and EU.’

The extreme threat arises from a single legal case regarding liability (known as the ‘Vnuk’ Judgment). Its consequences would be disastrous because insurance firms would find it economically impossible to insure competitive off-road riding activities, given the realities of damage to machines, collisions and all the elements which are the essence of competitive racing. This could more or less wipe out these sorts of events. The MCIA estimates that this could terminate activities involving over 1.7 million spectators and 55,000 riders annually, at over 4000 off-road and track events. This latest move stems from a broken commitment by the EU to resolve this issue. British Government officials have stated they oppose this unjustified measure.

Tony Campbell, CEO of the MCIA said: “In the UK alone, motorcycle sport is estimated to be worth £1 billion, which rises to around £11 billion across all forms of UK motor sports. We strongly support UK Government efforts, but our message is clear – whatever the outcome of these new proposals Government must take action in order to avoid the catastrophic damage that will be inflicted on Motorsport across the board if this ruling turns into law – even if this means defying Brussels.”

Lembit adds: ‘The UK Government has actively supported efforts to remove this threat to off-road riding and racing. Please contact your MP, asking them to write to Chris Grayling, Secretary of State for Transport, to ensure the UK Government will honour its pledge to ignore this draconian and virtually pointless directive from the EU Commission.’

Contact MAG at 01926 844 064 or central-office@mag-uk.org

ENDS

Double secret week long embargo?
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 20:07 - 15 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

stephen_o wrote:
The solution is what we voted for - A hard brexit


I do have to agree in that with brexit, we might as well make use of it and have our own laws, rules and regs and fuck the EU rulings.

Of course the problem is none of our Masters want a hard Brexit so we are stuck with EU rules.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:48 - 16 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, we've been cheerfully ignoring the implications of Vnuck up to now, just as we've been refusing to give prisoners a vote despite being told to do so repeatedly. We can pick and choose, when it suits.

Anyway, on topic, I believe that MAG have got the wrong end of the stick, and are waving it hysterically for propaganda purposes.

Vnuk (probably) requires track days and all other forms of motorsport to be covered. How does that threaten motorsport? The concern should be that all premiums will rise for everyone, regardless of whether we do motorsporting or not.

However: pillions.

Pillions are third parties. They can always claim as such against the bike owner's policy if they get potatoed.

And yet insurers ask if we will be taking a pillion or not.

It's not so they can wiggle out of the claim, it's so that they can adjust for the risk of whether we will be taking a pillion, and reward those of us who don't.

The same can and I expect will apply for motorsport. Yes, they have to pay out if you do it. But they can ask if you intend to.
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thx1138
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PostPosted: 11:40 - 16 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunno why MAG aren't just leaving this to ACU to comment on.
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G
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PostPosted: 13:25 - 16 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

Vnuk (probably) requires track days and all other forms of motorsport to be covered. How does that threaten motorsport? The concern should be that all premiums will rise for everyone, regardless of whether we do motorsporting or not.

How will people with pure race bikes get said insurance?

Sure; my current 675 is road registered.
But, I could see premiums rising significantly for those that list uprated suspension and brakes etc.

That's presuming you can get your bike reasonably road registered.

And gives insurance companies easy ways to remove insurance cover if your bike is not exactly as specified.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:31 - 16 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
How will people with pure race bikes get said insurance?

Depends on whether we interpret it as all policies having to cover racing, or whether racing has to be covered even if the bikes are unregistered / SORNed.

If it's the latter case than I can see what the fuss is about. It's not very clearly explained in the hand flapping, and it's difficult to lobby MP / MEPs if we don't know exactly what we're meant to be objecting to.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 15:58 - 16 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

In simple lay man's terms, is this scaremongering new insurance legislation likely or not to come in? And what does it mean for people with off road bikes, racers or clubs doing these activities. As said will the silly bonkers ruling extend to people with ride on mowers or garden machinery who may let others use them?

It still does sound like total unenforceable bollocks to me, and lastly where do closed to public (I.e spectators) venues stand with regards to having signs saying 'private property keep out' or 'motorsport is dangerous enter at your own risk'?

You can't make some things safe or unlikely to cause breakdowns, failure or injury. Drag racing or rwyb test days are a good example. How can you ring up an insurer and say I want to insure my funny bike for public liability cover? They'll ask 'is it road legal'? 'No, but it's built within class rules and has parts like tyres and safety devices meeting specified requirements' what if they ask 'Is there a strong chance of something failing in use or causing a serious issue to the safety of the rider?'
You'd say 'There's a very likely chance of a part failure that may or may not be catastrophic and could cause fire, explosion, dangerous fumes or a serious crash at 140mph.'

How would they respond to that with a suitable insurance premium for something that's got no guarantees of getting you safely from one end of a track to another?

I can't see any problems really or reasons why alot of off highway events, usage and competition need insurance. Keep the correct signage on secured perimeter fencing, and keep the public out then what's the problem?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:36 - 16 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly have no idea, and that's the problem: it's not being explained clearly by those who are flapping their arms about it.

The worst case scenario is mandating that all insurance has to cover all conceivable uses, and that all vehicles have to be insured for all uses, even if they're not going to be used on road. So road bikers have to pay for track cover, and track bikers have to pay for road cover.

I guess that would be the logical consequence of Vnuk. Yuk.
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barrkel
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PostPosted: 01:51 - 17 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
I do have to agree in that with brexit, we might as well make use of it and have our own laws, rules and regs and fuck the EU rulings.

FWIW, that means foregoing the advantages of having a large market, with more competition and more risk-spreading. Everything else being equal, this approach (Juche, i.e. the strong and self-reliant nation) asymptotically arrives North Korea, and not even NK wants to be NK any more.

tl;dr: a hard Brexit would increase your insurance bills. Not by much, not directly, and you probably won't notice it specifically, but it would.

See e.g. https://www.cooley.com/~/media/cooley/pdf/reprints/the-impact-of-brexit-on-insurance-and-reinsurance.ashx?la=en - currently, your broker can get quotes from insurers across the single market. The competition between insurers will be reduced and the broker will have less choice to quote from if the UK leaves the single market.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:43 - 17 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

barrkel wrote:
See e.g. https://www.cooley.com/~/media/cooley/pdf/reprints/the-impact-of-brexit-on-insurance-and-reinsurance.ashx?la=en - currently, your broker can get quotes from insurers across the single market. The competition between insurers will be reduced and the broker will have less choice to quote from if the UK leaves the single market.

Are EU underwriters prohibited from issuing cover outside the single market?

That sounds like North Korea-times-Hitler.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
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G
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PostPosted: 11:53 - 17 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
So road bikers have to pay for track cover, and track bikers have to pay for road cover.

Still an issue with who's going to insure the track biker, especially if they also have to have road cover?

Also, who's going to insure billy on his peewee 50 for road cover, when he's only just starting primary school, or even if road cover isn't required, if every bike has to be insured for every rider and they actually try and enforce it, I can see it having a devastating impact on up and coming riders. I'm sure the Italians and Spanish will ignore it.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:02 - 17 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Still an issue with who's going to insure the track biker, especially if they also have to have road cover?

Same folk who offer track day cover now? And they'll be wanting us to tick the "No road use" box, same as we tick the "No pillion" box now.

I'm coming round to believing that MAG might have a point, although they're not explaining exactly what they want to happen particularly well.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 16:13 - 17 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it possible lots of detail and explanation is lost in translation?

I have tried to read the Vnuk judgement and got lost in the ruminations.

It is a very thick account.

Disclaimers should be allowed but underwritten properly so weasels cannot escape proper liability.

If we take our bike on the track we insure to be on the track or not.

Ride with care for everyone.

None of our politicians can agree on much or know enough about much to give a 'professional' opinion.

This will be spun out like the right to die argument.
The right to die has less argument really.
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G
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PostPosted: 19:27 - 17 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

Same folk who offer track day cover now?

I'd never heard of it, so had a google.



https://trackday.moris.co.uk/News/Third-Party-Track-day-liability-Insurance044#news wrote:
There is growing questioning amongst trackday aficionados about the issue of third party liability cover. Questions we get asked are typically:
1. Am I covered?
2. Do the organisers cover me? and
3. Where can I buy trackday third party liability cover?

The answer in respect of the first two questions is almost certainly a resounding "No" and for the third questions the answer is "No where". In other words you have no cover and there is no insurer in the land who is regularly known to be providing this cover either.


I'm presuming this is explicitly third party insurance that's the issue.
Very limited and very overpriced cover for your own vehicle is available - but from what I've seen you'd have to be a very regular crasher for it to be cost effective.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 19:39 - 17 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a trip to Nurburg I researched the thing and often found reference to insurance for Nurburg Ring. It is a 'modified' public road but all 'motor' insurance is null if the vehicle is used on the ring.

Some Nurburg sites suggest taking out special insurance for track.
I think it cost thousands of pounds for the premium.
So I would imagine not many folk buy a policy.

There would be no difference for trackday insurance then.

I don't know if Parachuting/gliding or all that flying stuff is insurable.

I think anything may be covered if you can find an insurer and have the premium.
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G
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PostPosted: 20:08 - 17 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

You do get specific 3rd party Nurburgring policies as far as I know - it's a bit different to a normal trackday.

Also you have to pay for any damage you do to the Armco etc.

You do get 3rd party policies for parachuting and gliding - but if you do decent damage to a third party while parachuting, a) you've got to be very unlucky and b) you probably don't need to worry about it yourself!
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