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The dangers of motorcycling.....?

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Baffler186
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PostPosted: 11:13 - 18 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assume that no-one has seen you, identify escape routes when filtering, maneuvering and also when in a straight line. I've dropped bikes 4 times, and they were all my own fault with no other cars involved (due to new tyres, being drunk and moving the bike off road, and a couple dropsies when trying to park on uneven ground).

Agree watching death vids is useful, and you'll soon see that lots of them are due to excessive speed and/or total lack of common road sense. People do get hit and die through no fault of their own, but so do cagers and peds
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stephen_o
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PostPosted: 12:55 - 18 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

You will notice a change in attitude from car drivers even on your existing 125 when you rip the L plates up.
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bigdom86
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PostPosted: 15:16 - 18 Jun 2018    Post subject: re Reply with quote

only a danger to 1 pedestrian and 1 cyclist so far in the great city of london Laughing getting a loud can soon so hopefully will make everything much safer Rolling Eyes

but in all seriousness, if you ride sensibly and dont take silly risks (filtering around blind corners, riding 60 through residential areas etc) then you should be fine. have commuted in central london for 4 years now and havnt had an incident with another vehicle, have to watch out for zombies running out through traffic and cyclists are in a world of their own till they are under a lorry
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Oneear
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PostPosted: 17:01 - 18 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm currently re-reading Roadcraft after about a year (I initially read it around the time of my big licence test) and am pleasantly surprised at discovering how much of it I have actually put into practice while I am on the road.

A lot of it makes sense (maybe not all of it, mind) and I certainly feel a more confident rider, and a safer rider because of reading it.

The increased confidence leads to increased safety in my experience.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 15:00 - 20 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oneear wrote:


A lot of it makes sense (maybe not all of it, mind)


What does and doesn't make sense in Roadcraft?
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Oneear
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PostPosted: 13:34 - 23 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevor saxe-coburg-gotha wrote:
Oneear wrote:


A lot of it makes sense (maybe not all of it, mind)


What does and doesn't make sense in Roadcraft?



Have a read and decide, these things are subjective.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 17:52 - 24 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was asking you for your opinions.
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Oneear
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PostPosted: 22:36 - 24 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I've given them

Oneear wrote:
I certainly feel a more confident rider, and a safer rider because of reading it.

The increased confidence leads to increased safety in my experience.


I think the book is a useful tool. You can read it, or not, and decide for yourself.
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biker7
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PostPosted: 23:39 - 24 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The pleasures of biking outweigh the dangers. Remember this and you won't worry much! Learners have very few bad experiences ahead of them and a lifetime of fun. How exciting!
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:57 - 25 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oneear wrote:
I think the book is a useful tool. You can read it, or not, and decide for yourself.

Thanks, I have.

Since this is a discussion forum, and a thread about safety, perhaps we could discuss which parts we think make sense and which don't.

As you seem reticent, I'll go first.

Offsiding / taking a wide line into a left hand bend is bad.

If you already have good visibility round the bend, you don't need to do it.

If you don't have good visibility round the bend, you'll eventually meet someone doing the same thing coming the other way, and are likely to come off worse.

Court of Appeals agrees.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 17:23 - 25 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:


If you don't have good visibility round the bend, you'll eventually meet someone doing the same thing coming the other way, and are likely to come off worse.


That's not possible. If they're doing the same thing, i.e. going wide, they're over to their left for what to them is a right hand bend.

If not, they're cutting the corner. You're going wide. Their positioning is for reasons other than maximising line of sight. Whereas your position is taken precisely for this reason.

In any case, it could be argued that the key variable is speed. If you're positioned to the right half of your side of the road for a leftward bend, and going too fast to use the increased amount of information gained from that maximised line of sight, basically, you're not doing it right.

The principle seems to rest on the notion that the more information you have, the safer you'll be. Perhaps the problem comes when riders skew that slightly and place the emphasis on a related but potentially quite distinct idea. I.e. the more information you have, the faster you can go.

As we've said before when this shit comes up, perhaps it's the emphasis on "progress" that needs revising.

But, stepping back from such comparative minutiae for a sec, this issue does raise the question of whether "advanced" courses should include as part of their advice and guidance the practice of taking the widest line into a left hand bend. Part of the problem here is of course IAM, ROSPA et als reliance upon Police Roadcraft - wherein the practice is seen as a logical part of the "IPSGA" system.

Maybe it'd be better if someone wrote something called Public Roadcraft, where this particular aspect of advice and guidance is subjected to a decent level of scrutiny and criticism. After all, the converse practice of going wide on a rightward bend does seem to be of a qualitatively different order of risk: Not only are you positioning to maximise line of sight and thus the amount of info you can glean, but into the bargain, you're also further away from oncoming traffic.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 17:38 - 25 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oneear wrote:
And I've given them


I honestly don't mind if you participate further in this discussion, but please don't be a cunt about it.
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recman
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PostPosted: 17:41 - 25 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevor saxe-coburg-gotha wrote:
Oneear wrote:
And I've given them


I honestly don't mind if you participate further in this discussion, but please don't be a cunt about it.


Laughing
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AshWebster
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PostPosted: 18:01 - 25 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

mentalboy wrote:

Fuck what other people think, your risk of dying decreases/increases in relation to the amount of adrenaline you seek.


This.

If youre anything other than needing to use your bike for/to get to work.

Personally I find the closer to the edge you get the more adrenaline/more alive you feel.. This is obviously balanced out by the fact you are one wrong decision (by you or someone else) away from potatoland

Oh well, as one certain Scottish rally driver once said.. "if in doubt.. flat out" Very Happy
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 04:32 - 26 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Original Propesition:
The_west wrote:
The dangers of motorcycling.....?is how much of the supposed "dangers of motorcycling" can actually be mitigated by proper defensive riding


Page and a half later....
Oneear wrote:
I'm currently re-reading Roadcraft
And thread de-railed onto arguments over 'interpretations' of that particular tome, that have been raging, around me, personally, for over quarter of a bleedin century!!!

Oneear wrote:
A lot of it makes sense (maybe not all of it, mind)

trevor saxe-coburg-gotha wrote:
What does and doesn't make sense in Roadcraft?

Oneear wrote:
Have a read and decide, these things are subjective.

He has; others have, I have....
Oneear wrote:
And I've given them

No... no you haven't... you have aluded to them, no more. NOWERE have you sited... a single element of RC that you dont think makes sense...
Rogerborg wrote:
Since this is a discussion forum, and a thread about safety, perhaps we could discuss which parts we think make sense and which don't.

As you seem reticent, I'll go first.

Offsiding / taking a wide line into a left hand bend is bad.


trevor saxe-coburg-gotha wrote:
In any case, it could be argued that the key variable is speed. If you're positioned to the right half of your side of the road for a leftward bend, and going too fast to use the increased amount of information gained from that maximised line of sight, basically, you're not doing it right.


To which, I, personally, have to say I am far more swayed to Trevors line of the fence...

Danger of Road-Craft has ALWAYS been in the 'interpretation'... and when I read it ooooh... decades ago, get out clause was actually given in the preface, where it actually said "This guide has been written to offer a 'procedural way to ride a motorbike; but riding a motorbike is an intuative process not a mechanical one; the techgniques offered are only tools you need to decide whether to use or not" (or words to effect)

OFF-SIDING.... is nice contentiouse example; it is something that has gone in and out of fashion, and is only now decried cos of a couple of coppas killing themselves using the technique badly.

When I started riding, lots and lots of roads didn't have a white line down the middle; I was taught, from the off, "You have paid your road tax, so use the WHOLE road you got!" Off-siding was not merely center edging, it WAS riding on the wrong side of the road to get your sight line...

When they started putting white lines down the middle of more narrower roads; opinion remained; you have paid your road tax, no law says you cant cross the middle or ride on the wrong side of the road... just not croass a double white... so if it aint double white... you can STILL use the whiole width of the road you have paid your road tax to use, IF you want to, and think it useful.

Fashion and opinion, has, in the last twenty five years vascilated on the matter.... BUT, the law remains, its not illegal to ride on the wrong side of the road, or cross a non solid white line; road tax is still paid, IF a rider thinks it useful, they are within rights to off-side, and to the extreme.

Place I most often do it, YES I still employ that 'tool'... and kerbing to the far off-side, not hugging the middle, is about eight miles away.

Intreguing notion; road has not been altered in the last thirty years; only change is that they have stuck a white line down the middle.... what worked twenty tears ago, still works... only difference is that what was considered 'good form' two decades ago, now isn't.

But to elaborate; uphill stretch of barely duel-track (more than 4m?) wide B-Road; sweeping right hander about half way up steepening 1/2 mile stretch, as it gets steeper, then dog legs sharply to the left, before passing a row of terranced cottages, opposite a pub.

There is now I think a speed limit change, 30mph between cottages and pub, that wasn't there umpety years ago.... BUT speed is NOT the vital topic here.

As Kev suggests, more a case of employing the technique to use excess and inapropriate speed.... Oh! Yeah, them tools and how you CHOOSE to use them, as warned in the preface!

Let me take you trough that stretch on the Seven-Fifty and the old LWB Desiesil Land-Rover;

You come accross a junction, which is now all within a new 30 speed limit zone... but you roll on as you aproach the bottom of the hill... so you can get up the dang thing.... particularly in the old Landy, or half way up you would have had to change down so many gears and still flat out... at barely 20mph, you'd be wondering if you could get all the way up without using 'low-box'!!! So you use the lower portion of the hill to put on some momentum to carry you up the hill... and you REALY dont want to waste any of that braking for the ruddy bends!

As you aproach the end of the swooping left; road brifly straightens, and flattens a little, so you can trail the throttle a tad, and 'hang' to the right, simply not straightening up so fast...

This then gives you a sight line through the jink, a good 200 yeards earlier, and if you kerb to the right you can see right throgh the 'jink' and have those too yards of space to do 'something' if there's a car pulling out the pub car-park, or coming down past the cottages....

It makes 'space' and gives you a sight line, you just dont have if you hugged the left of lane.

If 'clear' you can now let momentum carry you up and through the jink, which in the old Landy mkeans you dont have to actually 'stop' and start crunching cogs trying to get it into low-box! On the Seven-Fifty, means you DONT have to haul it up on its nose, and risk locking up on the cow slurry oozing out of the farm gate-way just before the ruddy pub!

You can take a 'Smooth' line from your right hand kerb positioning, without excessive braking or excessive acceleration, or on the old VF-Thou, excessive 'lean'...

BUT you have made space, made room, and made time to react to anything the extra line of sight has offered you.....

You MAY choose to use that to carry more speed through the Jink.... and you might even ramp the speed, and use the braking and acceleration and lean you have saved to go faster, and use more of all.... THAT is YOUR choice... and ones over and above the one to off-side or not... these techniques are just tools remember....

SMOOTH is SAFE is SWIFT....

Get the smooth... use the sight lines, up to you to choose whether to use it for more 'safe' or more 'swift' or bit of either.... BUT, Off-Siding is tool that 'can' give you that bit of extra smooth to have that choice...

And, as the old Land-Rover... its the difference between coming to a full stop and getting an AudiEnema as you waggle forrest of levers to find a gear low enough to get moving again... and probably pull a BMW stuck on the Bates-Hitch at the back, up the hill with you; or as the bike, having a moment when the front steps out, on cow slurry or dropped deisel, as you brake and lean trying to hug the 'approved' line on the left.

Road-Craft, is a procedural manual, and riding a motorbike is NOT a procedural art... Road Craft does NOT have all the answers to every situation, and doesn't even pretend to try.. and there are a LOT of tools in that tool-box, that are, very very questionable....

The Cardington Clogdance for instance...... now THAT dont make much sense.....

Why come to a halt at a T-Junction, laft foot down, right covering brake; reverse the safety position, to select neutral, re-adopt safety position to wait cross traffic, reverse safety to re-engage first, THEN do observations to pull accross the T... CLUNKY very very clunky...

What sense is there in that! Makes far more to haul up a little early, boot 1st whilst still moving, and keep it feet up using space to 'just' keep moving and if you have to stop 'track-stand' the thing untuil you can go again... or at least thats what I do Lol! (No feet down, no op to mis-foot!)

That asside, I know why its there; and it does make 'some' sense, though may take trying to weave a bludi guzzi through stop-start traffic and left hand going numb trying to feather and hold a paddle type car clutch.. "AH! Yes Bee-Emm-DoubleYou!" Makes PERFECT sense now! (Do Pan-Clan-Plod still do this I wonder?)

First compiled when beat bobbies were given Velocette LE's and 'Traffic' got Triumph Saints, with cork type dry clutches..... you can see where this bit of dogma came from...

But, in my riding career, it has been engrained as 'legacy' and most of the folk that have used it as 'habbit' have done so either because it IS just habbit, or to show the 'discipline' and total adherance to 'the book', more than because its in any way 'best practice' let alone even 'an' less still 'the' most apropriate way of dealing with the situation....

YET... Road-Craft still 'makes sense'!!!!! IF you bother to read it all, and IF you have observed the get out in the preface, that its 'procedures' ARE just tools, and you DONT have to use any of them, or exactly as procedurally described, A-N-D as book (at least used to) try and explain... USE YOUR HEAD, and decide what is 'best' for you to do in any situation, on any road, in any whether.

THERE in lies the danger of what is, a very procedural 'hgow to ride' manual.... its not in the book, its in the people who's hands its in, and leading horses to water.

There is NO prescription fop 'good riding', and safety is IN your head not what you put ON your head.

Meanwhile.... thread has departed enormously from where it started, and question whether we have as much influence over safety as we are lead NOT to believe, and we are all an accident waiting to happen... to which answer remains... yes, we ARE all accidents looking for some-where to happen... the amount of influence we have is not huge, but it IS there, and with a bit of cocum we CAN do a heck of a lot to NOT crash..... BUT remains in our THINKING, not in something we read in a book...
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 08:23 - 26 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
Fashion and opinion, has, in the last twenty five years vascilated on the matter.... BUT, the law remains, its not illegal to ride on the wrong side of the road, or cross a non solid white line; road tax is still paid, IF a rider thinks it useful, they are within rights to off-side, and to the extreme.


To repeat a point I've made previously when this stuff's come up, my own local IAM and ROSPA diverge here. The advice and guidance of the former is to steadfastly remain on your side of the road on marked roads. Afaik. the latter advocate use of the whole road regardless of whether it's marked or not.

More specifically, our IAM follows the A&G published in the IAM publication How to be a Better Rider (which is essentially a far more concise version of Roadcraft). Here, riders are told to keep on their side of the road on marked roads. However, when it comes to unmarked roads, there appears to be some degree of latitude. My local branch say to use three quarters of the available road on unmarked roads. There are hundreds - perhaps thousands - of miles of unmarked roads in North Yorks and the East Riding. I personally wouldn't fancy using three quarters of the road on some of them. In fact, I wouldn't be too keen on using any fraction of them!

The difference between ROSPA and IAM on these matters came to light when a guy - previously a member of the local ROSPA club - decided he needed another badge for his jacket and came up the road to IAM. My mate, an IAM observer, took this guy out and noticed him crossing markings. He was pulled over at a convenient place and told about the IAM A&G - and altered his riding accordingly. How he chose to ride in his own time isn't clear. However, I should just mention that I'm not sure precisely what the context here was - i.e was the guy crossing markings to get the view on a left hander OR was he crossing them to straighten out a series of bends. They're potentially quite distinct forms of positioning - fwiw I personally think the latter is generally less hazardous.

Teflon-Mike wrote:
Kev


Crying or Very sad

Teflon-Mike wrote:
You can take a 'Smooth' line from your right hand kerb positioning, without excessive braking or excessive acceleration, or on the old VF-Thou, excessive 'lean'...

BUT you have made space, made room, and made time to react to anything the extra line of sight has offered you.....

You MAY choose to use that to carry more speed through the Jink.... and you might even ramp the speed, and use the braking and acceleration and lean you have saved to go faster, and use more of all.... THAT is YOUR choice... and ones over and above the one to off-side or not... these techniques are just tools remember....

SMOOTH is SAFE is SWIFT....

Get the smooth... use the sight lines, up to you to choose whether to use it for more 'safe' or more 'swift' or bit of either.... BUT, Off-Siding is tool that 'can' give you that bit of extra smooth to have that choice...


Yes - 'blend the bends' as some of them say. This is revisiting my earlier spiel above. In other words, plumbing a straighter line through esses or similar series of bends. I used to do it, and now I tend not to. And I'm not entirely sure why I changed, nor whether I'll change back again. Thinking about it a bit more, I may well do it if I'm certain I'm the only one using that particular piece of road. Otherwise, the most I'll do is smooth out a line within my side of the markings, or - on an unmarked road - take a smoothed line that's comparatively conservative. Going back to the IAM publication How to be a Better Rider, the A&G is lift your vision, look ahead, maximise the machine's stability and - basically - track a line that's as straight as you can without crossing markings, or using more than 75% of the road if it's not painted.

Drilling down a bit further, and again with respect to IAM A&G, the preferred practice is different again for 30 limits (and I suspect diverges from what most police forces advocate). In thirties, riders should generally remain central to their lane (call it position two, where your side of the road is split into thirds with position one being the left third, two the middle third and three the outer one). Unless to avoid hazards they are generally not to deviate from position two - why? Because your speed is so low that a maximised line of sight is said to be "less vital". Secondly, manoeuvring hither and yon is regarded as a potential source of confusion for other vehicles (of which there will be a greater volume, it being town innit luv). White lines - don't do it! Children - I feel a song coming on...

Ticket to ride, white line highway
Tell all your friends, that they can go my way
Pay your toll, sell your soul
Pound for pound, costs more than gold
The longer you stay, the more you pay


Aha-ahem

Quote:
The Cardington Clogdance for instance...... now THAT dont make much sense.....


Iirc the IAM book HtbaBR doesn't advocate the Hendon shuffle - however when I was an associate, a senior observer did once recommend it, basically on no other grounds than it might win brownie points with an cop examiner (afaik all IAM examiners are ex-cops). However, this is several years ago. That senior observer is no longer with the club, and there's since been something of a moratorium on the practice. Iow, it *is* dying out - as indeed it probably should. Me personally, I sometimes do it - old habits, etc. But tend not to. It makes for a slower get away in town - well, actually, anywhere. But for traffic light grand prix, it's a positive hindrance.

Other potentially contentious shite in RC and HtbaBR- straight lining roundabouts, filtering, hi-vis.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 10:18 - 26 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh gawd.. white lines, to cross or not to cross that is the question Mr Nelson!

I had err bludi-guzzi do a nice tank-slapping weave on me a while back on a center chevron! All depends how many times they have been re-painted I suppose.... even so, still less bumpy than some of the roads round here!!!!

At least UK white road markings are 'notionally' gritted for grip, unlike the Dulux reported in some foreign climes!

"Position 2 in 30 zones!" EEEK! What's the 'approved' advice for passing a row of parked cars these days? Used to be "Slow down, leave a car-door width to your near side!"... riding 'to the book' in a 30 limit with parked cars would give you a nervous breakdown trying to decide the precedence of those two bits of procedure, wouldn't it, if you hadn't stopped behind a badly parked kiddie-carrier to have it! lol!

I LIKED the old preface that the 'tools' in Road-Craft were just that, and for a rider to use judgement to use or not.. it WAS about THE most sensible thing in the whole darn book!
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 10:30 - 26 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:


"Position 2 in 30 zones!" EEEK! What's the 'approved' advice for passing a row of parked cars these days? Used to be "Slow down, leave a car-door width to your near side!"... riding 'to the book' in a 30 limit with parked cars would give you a nervous breakdown trying to decide the precedence of those two bits of procedure, wouldn't it, if you hadn't stopped behind a badly parked kiddie-carrier to have it! lol!


Hah yeah - obvs P2 i.e. centre of lane unless any hazard or potential hazard is observed. Then the idea of the "safety bubble" comes into use - something from HtbaBR but which isn't afaicr actually in Roadcraft, but if anyone knows differently I'm sure they'll mention it. Anyway, safety bubble is an imaginary half-sphere around the bike. When something threatens to press against it, the rider must move away to maintain the bubble's true shape. So - just another way i.e. tool i.e. metaphor etc. to anticipate and negotiate hazards. I think it's most useful on urban roads with lots of peds, driveways and shenanigans - and where speeds tend to be slower. But - incursions into your safety bubble not withstanding, nor indeed other potential or actual hazards either - in 30s, stay central to your lane and don't position for view, advantage or anything else!
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Last edited by trevor saxe-coburg-gotha on 14:36 - 26 Jun 2018; edited 2 times in total
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 11:16 - 26 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh gawd, the 'beach ball'!!! Yeah! Amusing one that... riding with your arms stuck out like on a crucifix to judge how big the ball is, and should grow with speed or shrink with intrusions! Lol!

These fancy modern car mirrors that fold in when the ignitions off, probably take a LOT of the fun out of that one! Lol!
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Hong Kong Phooey
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Joined: 30 Apr 2016
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PostPosted: 20:46 - 28 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
Most bike [horns] are crap anyway.

I did have cause to use mine recently due to a lane changer.

Although it was on the Enfield and I've currently got the comedy "AROOGA" horn wired in, so it was more comical than castigating.


It's a good job I've not got one of those horns, as this hot weather brings its own roadside distractions, for which that noise would be very appropriate but possibly misunderstood.

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Kentol750
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Joined: 24 May 2016
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PostPosted: 23:48 - 28 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to the point though, your instructor (If any good) should be teaching you how to ride safely and quickly together, whilst teaching you 'how to pass the test. If not, I'd ask for my money back. The dangers are choices you've already weighed up. The more videos you watch will only add weight to your perception of the danger.
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