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Wiring problem = battery not charging... Next steps?

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livtastical
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PostPosted: 18:32 - 19 Jun 2018    Post subject: Wiring problem = battery not charging... Next steps? Reply with quote

Hey folks!

I bought a Yamaha YBR 125 Custom that has accidentally turned into a mini project.... Mainly limited to cleaning it up and fixing the back wheel - or so I thought. Just when we thought we'd done enough to get it on the road, another thing has come up.

The battery went really flat when we were working on it and had to be replaced but i thought this was a combo of a wiring issue with the ignition not getting any power (my father in law fixed it with a bypass wire / a bit of what he likes to call bush mechanic-ing) and the fact it got fired up pretty frequently but not run for any significant period.

However, after having the battery replaced (and spark plugs) and the wee bike passing its MOT with flying colours, my partner went on a wee run the other day and noticed the electric start wasn't working. Fine, bike has a kick start, grand for getting home. But when I tried to ride after the 3 mile round trip, the electrics just died every time i tried to let the clutch out. There went my fun weekend run!

I've very little mechanical or electrical knowledge but I do have a multi-meter, YouTube, the Haynes manual and you guys so... hopefully you can help guide me with what I need to check or do next to get to fixing the problem?

I have already done a bit of trouble shooting and here is what I know:

1) The battery is kaput. With the bike off, it was only giving me a reading of like 11.5V. It's from halfords and only bought it a week or so ago so hoping i can take it back under warranty? Or should I try it with a charger first (I'd have to buy one)?

2) When I turned the bike ignition on, the battery voltage reading didn't go up. It went down a little to 11.1V but it didn't start dropping further either. On revving the bike it stayed exactly the same. This lead me to think there was a problem with the charging circuit.

3) I checked the reg/rec. The diodes are working as expected (with wires from the power leads to the diode wires, one way gave all O/L readings and the other way all fairly consistent 3 digit numbers, vice versa for the other input lead) so I don't think this part is the problem.

4) Checked power inputs to reg/rec via harness (while connected and while disconnected to reg/rec). No voltage reading between reg/rev harness and the battery, for both red & black wires, with the ignition both on and off (it just read the air's mV).

Am I right in thinking this might be the problem? If it is, how to localise the problem further without taking the fuel tank off to get at all the wiring? I'll do that if i have to but it seems like a massive job...

5) I haven't checked the stator/alternator, mainly because the Haynes manual is currently up the road at aforementioned father-in-law's.

It's a bit frustrating because the bike literally passed an MOT on Friday just gone. But I guess this is not the kind of thing they'd really bother checking?

If any of this sounds "oh god, this amateur should not be touching this", I do have home recovery and can get them to come take the bike to the professionals - but if it's something i can fix myself I'd much rather do that!

Thanks for bearing with me through the spiel and also in advance for any advice you might have. Very Happy
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 18:54 - 19 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, start the bike. Check the voltage when the engine is being revved. If it doesn't go up the charging circuit isn't working and your batteries are probably fine.
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livtastical
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PostPosted: 19:01 - 19 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
First off, start the bike. Check the voltage when the engine is being revved. If it doesn't go up the charging circuit isn't working and your batteries are probably fine.


Thanks. As I mentioned above, this is what I have done. As you say, the voltage doesn't change when the bike is revved so the charging circuit was to blame. The reg/rec is fine but there is no power to it. What do I check next to localise the problem further?

Also, I've read to imply once the battery is drained enough it might not actually ever charge again, which is why I was wondering whether it was worth trying to charge it (which would necessitate buying a charger) vs taking it back - as once I have this problem fixed my bike will still need a battery. What do you think?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 19:29 - 19 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Three wires from the stator to the reg rec. From each pair you should get voltage of some sort, up to about 20V. Remember that this will be AC and not DC.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 19:39 - 19 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure those tests will have any validity with a knackered battery. See if Halfords will change it under warranty. Don't give them the bike story, just tell them the battery has failed and you'd like a replacement.
I normally charge a new battery before use but it's up to you.
Then try this: https://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf
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BusterGonads
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PostPosted: 20:02 - 19 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The battery has been flattened - it isn't a replacement issue unless he leaves it that way. Why should Halfords take a loss when a punter flattens the battery? Halfords don't take the loss anyway - everybody else does because the prices go up to pay for this sort of thing.

First thing is to get that battery onto a suitable charger and charge it. Just in case the poster doesn't know this (and apologies if he does - but others reading later may not) the charger should be a modern one which will charge a small battery properly and not like my old one, stuff about five amps into anything you connect it too. You should charge the battery at no more than 1/10th of its amp hr capacity, so if it is a five amp hr battery, not more than half an amp (500 Milli amps).

Sounds like the alternator is not working, or the wiring from it, but get that battery charged soon or it will be useless because of sulfation.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 20:36 - 19 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Halfords prices already factor in this kind of thing. Besides which, they'll test it. As far as we know, in the week since the battery was bought it's had a trip to the MOT station and a 3-mile jolly. For trouble-shooting purposes I think it's fair to first question the suitability of the new battery.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 20:42 - 19 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The chances that two batteries have died when one is brand new are negligable. It's either the reg/rec or the stator.
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BusterGonads
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PostPosted: 20:52 - 19 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Halfords prices already factor in this kind of thing. Besides which, they'll test it. As far as we know, in the week since the battery was bought it's had a trip to the MOT station and a 3-mile jolly. For trouble-shooting purposes I think it's fair to first question the suitability of the new battery.


I think he already made it clear that the charging system is not working when he said there were no volts on the generator side of the rectifier with the engine running. The new battery was not charged before use so it is not surprising it is now flat. This is not a faulty battery; it has been misused.
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livtastical
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PostPosted: 23:35 - 19 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys, this is all super helpful - as I've said practical electrics are all a bit new to me. Smile The flow chart link you posted is immensely helpful, Kawasaki Jimbo - it fits with my understanding of what i needed to do but adds a few extra bits where I was getting mystified! Cheers!

Leaving aside then ethical debate of whether I go back to Halfords... First, I will get the battery charged and happy - or replaced if it's gone to sulphated heaven (thanks for the tip re chargers tony1951, this is what i was worried about but it sounds like it might be possible to bring it back from the brink before it gets too sad...)

Looking at Oxford Oximiser 9000 if I buy a charger as I like the idea of the read outs, it claims to be able to revive batteries from the dead, and you can leave it plugged in too in the winter - do we reckon this is decent? I'll have a wee search on the forum as well for reccs.

It's possible I could borrow a charger alternatively, but it might not be until a couple of weekends time and it sounds like i need to get on this asap if I don't want to pay for a new battery anyway?

Once battery is happier, I'll report back after further testing, including the stator too, as both flowchart and Nobby suggest. I am hoping that it isn't that as they are like £250 new, but we will cross that bridge if we come to it! Cool

p. s. she* Mr. Green
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livtastical
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PostPosted: 23:46 - 19 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

tony1951 wrote:
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Halfords prices already factor in this kind of thing. Besides which, they'll test it. As far as we know, in the week since the battery was bought it's had a trip to the MOT station and a 3-mile jolly. For trouble-shooting purposes I think it's fair to first question the suitability of the new battery.


I think he already made it clear that the charging system is not working when he said there were no volts on the generator side of the rectifier with the engine running. The new battery was not charged before use so it is not surprising it is now flat. This is not a faulty battery; it has been misused.


I don't think it makes a difference to your statement, but it was no volts on the battery side of the rectifier - I haven't checked the generator side yet.

I think the new battery was charged before use but I can't quite remember - I know my FIL definitely had his charger out for the old battery but it wouldn't take any charge hence buying the new battery. It seems like he would have charged the new one but like I say I'm not 100% on that.

Jimbo - in fact the bike was trailered to the MOT place so since the new battery it literally just did the 3 odd miles, haha, plus a couple of tests of the alarm system. Not ideal given we want it as a commuter come Sept!
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WmY
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PostPosted: 23:58 - 19 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

livtastical wrote:
Looking at Oxford Oximiser 9000 if I buy a charger as I like the idea of the read outs, it claims to be able to revive batteries from the dead


I have also heard it can turn the lead in batteries into gold.
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livtastical
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PostPosted: 00:07 - 20 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

WmY wrote:
livtastical wrote:
Looking at Oxford Oximiser 9000 if I buy a charger as I like the idea of the read outs, it claims to be able to revive batteries from the dead


I have also heard it can turn the lead in batteries into gold.


Laughing okay, you got me, from >4V...
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 08:28 - 20 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's rare to loose all 3 stator coils at the same time. I'd be looking closely at connectors for corrosion.
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BusterGonads
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PostPosted: 08:58 - 20 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Livtastical

Hopefully since it hasn't been left too long the battery will take a charge. Since you have a multimeter, you can run it on the ten amp scale and check the current being put into the battery while charging, if you get my meaning. You connect one of the meter lead in series with one of the battery charger leads. Obviously, if you connect the meter to the positive charger lead, the other meter lead goes to the positive battery terminal.

If it was me, once I got the battery charged enough to run the bike, I'd start it and check the voltage on the generator side of the rectifier. You should see AC voltage as someone else said of about 20 volts with some revs on the engine (AC volts set on multimeter dial). Nobby has said to check all the stator coil leads as they come into the rectifier. If any are showing no or low volts, check wiring and connections.

Check the wiring diagram for your bike to see what leads are supplying the battery via the rectifier. Some bikes like my little CG Honda have some generator leads going strait to direct AC lighting and another to the rectifier. Your wiring diagram will show you the way forward.
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livtastical
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PostPosted: 17:42 - 21 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys, Thanks so much for your tips! I have not forgotten you!

Sorry for going awol on this, I had some personal stuff which meant the bike had to take a back seat, and so instead of dealing with it myself I took it to a couple of mechanics to see if they could see what the problem was at least while I got myself together. First guy tried to replace the reg/rec (without testing afaik) but it didn't fix the problem, and then was unable to help further and advised I consult an auto electrician (but kindly didn't charge me for his time as he hadn't fixed the problem!). The second chap who offered to look at it works for the training school I am doing my direct access with, and I had mentioned I'd been having problems so he said he'd give it a wee look to see if it was something obvious. He let me know the wiring was crap in general in his opinion but said it would be a money sink to pay someone to fix the issue I was having and recommended passing the bike on ASAP, which I didn't feel I could ethically do without renumerating the issues it is having, which would mean selling it for a substantially lower price than I'd paid. Plus after 10 miles it would break down and the people who bought it off me would know where I lived haha. Not ideal.

Anyway the long and short of it is that I've finally had some time to sit down and go through the wiring diagram myself and puzzle things out with a multimeter as you all suggested. Everything was reading as expected between the reg-rec and the alternator.

But I checked the wiring to see if any were compromised. The red (power) wire between the battery/starter and the reg-rec read >1 M-ohm! All other wires I checked read as expected at 0 ohms so I'm pretty sure this will be the problem with the charging system. I. E. the power generated by the charging system can't get back to the battery, so of course it won't be able to get charged! Am I right in thinking that?

Plan is to grab a test wire to link +ve battery to the relevant rec/reg wire, and if that resolves the problem I'll decide how dedicated I feel - adding a single wire to fix the problem, vs removing and opening up the wiring harness to do a bit of electrical surgery, as well as checking it all and repairing any obvious other bad wires bits/clean it up and rewrap. The latter kind of appeals to me but also I don't have a garage to work from so I'd have to get everything out, put the bike back together, then repeat the process to put it back in rather than leaving it somewhere nice and dry and secure in bits.

Incidentally, I've been charging the battery up & riding around on the bike a bit. (I imagine this isn't brilliant for the battery but I have another one in reserve which I can switch to once the problem is fixed but I'd rather have limited use of the bike.) She can do around 10 miles before the battery loses too much charge to keep the fuel pump going - so she is mechanically sound, and the rest of the wiring seems to be working fine (fuel pump, headlights, instruments, indicators etc all good), which is good news.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 08:37 - 22 Oct 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

In your first post you mentioned the father-in-law doing some kind of bush fix/bypass. Have you taken that off yet? No point trying to diagnose a problem until you've removed something that is obviously causing a problem.

Assuming that bypass has been removed, the next step, as you have already been told, is to check the output from the stator. Whilst stators can fail, its fairly uncommon. Generally more of a problem on old bikes (20 years+) where the epoxy flakes off.

If you have power from the stator, next thing to check is continuity down the wires from the reg/rec to the battery. Internal breaks on wires does happen, but I have only come across this on wires that are flexing a lot (such as around the headstock).

Finally, the reg/rec. Reg/recs do break, and are difficult to test. They tend to break gradually. A normal, shunt-type reg/rec has 3 diode pairs for the 3 outputs of the alternator. These go one at a time. A slightly knackered reg/rec may produce no output at idle, but some output at 4000rpm.

Finally, if the wiring has been butchered, fix it. If any connectors have been made using choccy block connectors, or just by twisting and taping the wires, remake the connection properly. Either use insulated crimps (a pack of crimps and crimping pliers is cheap on ebay) or solder and shrinkwrap.
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livtastical
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PostPosted: 13:50 - 14 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morning all! I got this sorted in the end, after lots of reading up in electrics!! Thanks for all you guys help in sorting😊

Just wanted to give an update in case someone finds this thread in the future and wants to know how I fixed the problem!

As I mentioned in my last post, after checking the relevant parts (battery, reg/rec and stator) were NOT the primary problem using my trusty voltmeter, I then determined that there was no connection between the battery and the reg/rec - there were no dodgy connectors, and so the wire must have been damaged internally (as Robby suggested).

I decided for the sake of being complete that rather than just fitting a new wire to piggyback (which would have worked), I would take out the wiring harness and test all the electrics, plus rewrap it once I'd replaced the faulty wire. Was prepared for a complete rewire actually, but didn't end up doing that as all wires were in good nick in the end.

All this had the added advantage of teaching me the basics of motorbike wiring so if anyone in Scotland wants their bike rewired, I am up for it haha.

Thanks all! [/b]
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