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daws0n |
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daws0n Borekit Bruiser
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andy_uk |
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andy_uk World Chat Champion
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 10:40 - 12 May 2018 Post subject: |
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Find the starter solenoid. I think it's under the left hand side panel. Follow the thick red cable from the battery positive. Use an old screwdriver to short between the two metal "posts" with the fat wires attached. The starter motor should turn the engine over briskly.
If it doesn't, your battery is flat. Charge it, then you are in a position to do some tests to find out WHY it is flat.
While you're there, you'll see a connector block on top of the starter solenoid which holds the main 30A fuse. Check the wires going into the fuse. Have a good look at the connectors, check the terminals on the fuse for corrosion and give the wire a good wiggle. If it comes off in your hand, or is heavily corroded (green powdery stuff), you've almost certainly found the problem. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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jaffa90 |
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jaffa90 World Chat Champion
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daws0n |
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daws0n Borekit Bruiser
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
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daws0n |
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daws0n Borekit Bruiser
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 15:36 - 12 May 2018 Post subject: |
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Yes, the solenoid is effectively a heavy-duty relay that connects those two wires together to activate the starter motor. If you short between the two of them, the starter motor should turn (regardless of the position of the ignition). It's high current so there wil be sparks and the thing you use to short them will get hot. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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daws0n |
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daws0n Borekit Bruiser
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Chris45 |
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Chris45 Nitrous Nuisance
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Islander |
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Islander World Chat Champion
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 00:21 - 13 May 2018 Post subject: |
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It is sounding increasingly like a starter motor failure. Check the wires to it first though. Make sure the earth is making good contact with the chassis.
This being the case, Irt ought to bump start quite readily.
Another thing you could try is bunging it in gear (2nd for preferrence, but this can be tricky to hook on a kawasaki with the engine off) then nudging it backwards against the engine a little. This should turn the starter motor backwards slightly. If it's a dirty commutator segment, this can nudge it onto a good sector. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 00:53 - 13 May 2018 Post subject: |
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Battery-Solenoid-Starter.. they are often related issues, with folk getting a slow-starter, replacing battery, and thinking the problem has gone away, so must have been battery... until it happens again.....
Then when they have bought two or three batteries they start blaming the regulator/rectifier... which is often even earlier on a Honda.... a-n-d little warning on this one ISTR that there was a recurring problem on GPz500/ER5 twin engines, in so far as they had a habbit of chucking the magnets off the rotor in the generator.. this MAY be worth popping the mag cover to check, as loose magnets eat startors and can cause untiold £s worth of damage and hassle, even if the rotor/stator isn't ultimately the root-cause of problem.
Back to battery, solenoid and starter.....
A tired starter will suck more amps than it should as the carbon brushes start to wear out; usually co-incident with the engine beoming a bit tired and lazy starting anyway, so tendancy is it takles more cranking to get it to catch, and more cranking of old starter wears out more brushes, starter gets more lazy, leading to more cranking to get motor to catch... meanwhile, starter sucks extra amps from battery.... hint starter will suck perhaps 10X the amps the battery is designed to deliver... so no surprise it can fail to turn starter but make horn beep or lights glow..... But extra amps hammered out of the battery above its nominal dischargfe rating, will tend to kill it exponentially fast.. will also tend to over-load the solenoid, so again, contacts there burn out or charr and add more load adding more amps to make starter eveb lazier....
In short... it's not a single point fix, you need look at, check and service the whole lot.
Start point, base line the motor, with a damn good service... do compression check; checl tappet clerances, make sure the motor is good and got the best chance of starting, first.
Next up; pull the starter motor; srtip, clean check and or replace the brushes if serviceable, if not get a new starter. If starter serviceable; reconditin it. Clean the gears fit new grease, make sure the bushes are good, and fit new brushes, after cleaning out all the old soot, mis-directing the amps it sucks from battery.
Look at the solenoid... if it were an older honda they are often screwed to gether and have thick contact plates you can make flat and clean again with a flat file.... if not may have to bite the bullet and replace unit.... but again, reduces current draw, increases chances of good start.
Last, new battery..... if starter been getting older and tireder, likely that duff tired old starter and or solenoid and lazy starting engine will have killed even a brand new battery in short order.... so all else bottomed, new battery has best chance of working, working well, and lasting... just remember to fill it with acid, trickle charge it for a day, and check electrolyte levels before fitting to bike... and dont do that til you have de-bugged the rest, of you risk killing new battery just like the old trying!
Rotor magnets.... as said... known issue on Kwak twins, as the glue holding them on gets old..... its worth checking... if not to blame. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 08:01 - 13 May 2018 Post subject: |
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The above is all well and good, however, the OP has done some testing which removes some of the random, stab in in the dark element.
For one thing, a service isn't going to suddenly make the starter motor turn. Starting by checking compression and the tappeds seems like an utter waste of time.
We're talking about fault finding/diagnostics, adopt a logical approach. So problem list, possible diagnosis list, testing to eliminate items from that list, diagnosis
He found no voltage drop when activating the starter, despite the solenoid clicking. That means either the solenoid isn't making a contact OR it isn't connected to anything with an electrical circuit.
The starter motor failed to turn when the terminals on the solenoid were shorted. This effectively rules out the solenoid as being the cause of the problem.
So the one extra test we'd now need to do is check for a voltage drop with the solenoid shorted. A duff battery should experience a massive voltage drop if it's connected to a starter motor, even if it doesn't turn.
That being the case, the problem is either the starter motor itself or the wiring going to it.
The rotor magnet thing is a good call but I don't think it happened with the ER5 motors, just the 1st gen GPZ and KLE ones. Certainly can't find any instances of it happening on a quick google. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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daws0n |
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daws0n Borekit Bruiser
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daws0n |
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daws0n Borekit Bruiser
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Islander |
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Islander World Chat Champion
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Posted: 20:37 - 14 May 2018 Post subject: |
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You probably jogged the meagre remnants of one of the brushes into temporary contact with the commutator.
If there's no significant voltage drop when the contacts are shorted then there's no current being drawn by the starter motor. If the voltage appears when the button is pressed then the solenoid is ok.
Starter motor off, strip, clean, replace brushes and rebuild. |
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Chris45 |
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Chris45 Nitrous Nuisance
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daws0n |
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daws0n Borekit Bruiser
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robocog |
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robocog Traffic Copper
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TheManWithThe... |
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TheManWithThe... Brolly Dolly
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daws0n |
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daws0n Borekit Bruiser
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Islander |
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Islander World Chat Champion
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Posted: 19:55 - 21 Jun 2018 Post subject: |
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It's not ideal but shorting the terminals won't cause any problems as long as you're careful to avoid accidental shorts to chassis or other earth point with whatever you're using to connect them. It might be worth carrying a spare master fuse just in case.
I'd rebuild the original starter motor as a spare for the future too. |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 5 years, 282 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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