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Kawasaki ER-5 unable to start, advice needed

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daws0n
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PostPosted: 10:22 - 12 May 2018    Post subject: Kawasaki ER-5 unable to start, advice needed Reply with quote

Hey guys

Had my ER-5 now for 10 months, been running well for 5k and daily use until yesterday... I've noticed over the past few rides that the starter has been sounding a little slow, and has needed a couple more seconds on the button to fire up the engine.

Yesterday, it let out a slow grumble then nothing - all I get now is a clicking noise from the starter ignition relay (DENSO 056700-5260) when the button is pressed. Horn is sounding fine and all bulbs lighting up as normal.

Battery is 9 month olds and reporting as healthy according to the garage I bought it from (decent charge). My hunch is the starter motor has died, but should I look into anything else before buying a replacement part?

Thanks
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andy_uk
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PostPosted: 10:27 - 12 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will it bump start?
Can you check the battery voltage while pressing the start button?

To be honest, it sounds like the battery is on its way out. Did the garage 'load test' it?
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 10:40 - 12 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Find the starter solenoid. I think it's under the left hand side panel. Follow the thick red cable from the battery positive. Use an old screwdriver to short between the two metal "posts" with the fat wires attached. The starter motor should turn the engine over briskly.

If it doesn't, your battery is flat. Charge it, then you are in a position to do some tests to find out WHY it is flat.

While you're there, you'll see a connector block on top of the starter solenoid which holds the main 30A fuse. Check the wires going into the fuse. Have a good look at the connectors, check the terminals on the fuse for corrosion and give the wire a good wiggle. If it comes off in your hand, or is heavily corroded (green powdery stuff), you've almost certainly found the problem.
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jaffa90
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PostPosted: 11:02 - 12 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try jump leads from a donor battery or buy a multimeter it will tell you all and save money too.
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daws0n
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PostPosted: 13:51 - 12 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers for that stinkwheel - there was indeed a lot of green corrosion in the connector block next the 30a fuse - all sorted with contact cleaner but annoyingly the starter problem remains!

Not tried bump starting it yet - garage left it on charge for an hour and said it seemed healthy, but as it's under warranty they've offered to send it off for further testing.

I've got through and cleaned every connector around the engine / battery / side panels I can get to but I have left the one connecting to the starter motor for now. It's protected by a tight rubber boot so I can't see how any corrosion could get in, I've tried gently removing it for a look but all I'm doing is tearing at the rubber trying to get at it - probably best left alone??

Will try shorting the starter solenoid after lunch and will report back.

Also tested the battery with a multimeter:

idle - 12.4v
starter button engaged - 12.25v
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 15:16 - 12 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

daws0n wrote:


Will try shorting the starter solenoid after lunch and will report back.

Also tested the battery with a multimeter:

idle - 12.4v
starter button engaged - 12.25v


That definately seems wrong. Be interesting to see what happens when you short the terminals on the solenoid. Based on your readings, the starter motor isn't being connected up when you push the button. With a flat battery, I'd expect a massive voltage drop when you push the starter.

Most likely culprit is that solenoid but maybe even the starter motor itself (or its connections).

The solenoids can and do fail.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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daws0n
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PostPosted: 15:22 - 12 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will give it a go now - just finished removing / cleaning the earth strap wire (it goes from battery negative to a bolt holding down the starter motor). No change, but no harm done as it was fairly dirty anyway.

Just to confirm, I am looking to short the two fat wires connected on this device?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KAWASAKI-ER-5-ER-5-ER5-1998-15691miles-STARTER-SOLENOID-/371120147757
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 15:36 - 12 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

daws0n wrote:
Will give it a go now - just finished removing / cleaning the earth strap wire (it goes from battery negative to a bolt holding down the starter motor). No change, but no harm done as it was fairly dirty anyway.

Just to confirm, I am looking to short the two fat wires connected on this device?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KAWASAKI-ER-5-ER-5-ER5-1998-15691miles-STARTER-SOLENOID-/371120147757


Yes, the solenoid is effectively a heavy-duty relay that connects those two wires together to activate the starter motor. If you short between the two of them, the starter motor should turn (regardless of the position of the ignition). It's high current so there wil be sparks and the thing you use to short them will get hot.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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daws0n
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PostPosted: 18:40 - 12 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shorting the contacts didn't work stinkwheel, no life from the starter motor still.

Getting a 12.35 voltage reading / and 0.05 ohm resistance on the solenoid with the start button pressed in - I can hear the relay make a loud click too so I think it's working OK.

Hoping at this stage it's just a premature battery failure, as swapping out the starter motor is a tricky job looking at the haynes manual.
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Chris45
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PostPosted: 19:52 - 12 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sprag clutch?
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Islander
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 12 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the voltage isn't dropping significantly, then the starter motor isn't pulling any current. Check the connection on the starter motor for corrosion, if it's ok then the brushes will probably need replacing.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 00:21 - 13 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is sounding increasingly like a starter motor failure. Check the wires to it first though. Make sure the earth is making good contact with the chassis.

This being the case, Irt ought to bump start quite readily.

Another thing you could try is bunging it in gear (2nd for preferrence, but this can be tricky to hook on a kawasaki with the engine off) then nudging it backwards against the engine a little. This should turn the starter motor backwards slightly. If it's a dirty commutator segment, this can nudge it onto a good sector.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 00:53 - 13 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Battery-Solenoid-Starter.. they are often related issues, with folk getting a slow-starter, replacing battery, and thinking the problem has gone away, so must have been battery... until it happens again.....

Then when they have bought two or three batteries they start blaming the regulator/rectifier... which is often even earlier on a Honda.... a-n-d little warning on this one ISTR that there was a recurring problem on GPz500/ER5 twin engines, in so far as they had a habbit of chucking the magnets off the rotor in the generator.. this MAY be worth popping the mag cover to check, as loose magnets eat startors and can cause untiold £s worth of damage and hassle, even if the rotor/stator isn't ultimately the root-cause of problem.

Back to battery, solenoid and starter.....

A tired starter will suck more amps than it should as the carbon brushes start to wear out; usually co-incident with the engine beoming a bit tired and lazy starting anyway, so tendancy is it takles more cranking to get it to catch, and more cranking of old starter wears out more brushes, starter gets more lazy, leading to more cranking to get motor to catch... meanwhile, starter sucks extra amps from battery.... hint starter will suck perhaps 10X the amps the battery is designed to deliver... so no surprise it can fail to turn starter but make horn beep or lights glow..... But extra amps hammered out of the battery above its nominal dischargfe rating, will tend to kill it exponentially fast.. will also tend to over-load the solenoid, so again, contacts there burn out or charr and add more load adding more amps to make starter eveb lazier....

In short... it's not a single point fix, you need look at, check and service the whole lot.

Start point, base line the motor, with a damn good service... do compression check; checl tappet clerances, make sure the motor is good and got the best chance of starting, first.

Next up; pull the starter motor; srtip, clean check and or replace the brushes if serviceable, if not get a new starter. If starter serviceable; reconditin it. Clean the gears fit new grease, make sure the bushes are good, and fit new brushes, after cleaning out all the old soot, mis-directing the amps it sucks from battery.


Look at the solenoid... if it were an older honda they are often screwed to gether and have thick contact plates you can make flat and clean again with a flat file.... if not may have to bite the bullet and replace unit.... but again, reduces current draw, increases chances of good start.

Last, new battery..... if starter been getting older and tireder, likely that duff tired old starter and or solenoid and lazy starting engine will have killed even a brand new battery in short order.... so all else bottomed, new battery has best chance of working, working well, and lasting... just remember to fill it with acid, trickle charge it for a day, and check electrolyte levels before fitting to bike... and dont do that til you have de-bugged the rest, of you risk killing new battery just like the old trying!

Rotor magnets.... as said... known issue on Kwak twins, as the glue holding them on gets old..... its worth checking... if not to blame.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 08:01 - 13 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The above is all well and good, however, the OP has done some testing which removes some of the random, stab in in the dark element.

For one thing, a service isn't going to suddenly make the starter motor turn. Starting by checking compression and the tappeds seems like an utter waste of time.

We're talking about fault finding/diagnostics, adopt a logical approach. So problem list, possible diagnosis list, testing to eliminate items from that list, diagnosis

He found no voltage drop when activating the starter, despite the solenoid clicking. That means either the solenoid isn't making a contact OR it isn't connected to anything with an electrical circuit.

The starter motor failed to turn when the terminals on the solenoid were shorted. This effectively rules out the solenoid as being the cause of the problem.

So the one extra test we'd now need to do is check for a voltage drop with the solenoid shorted. A duff battery should experience a massive voltage drop if it's connected to a starter motor, even if it doesn't turn.

That being the case, the problem is either the starter motor itself or the wiring going to it.

The rotor magnet thing is a good call but I don't think it happened with the ER5 motors, just the 1st gen GPZ and KLE ones. Certainly can't find any instances of it happening on a quick google.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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daws0n
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PostPosted: 19:02 - 14 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really appreciating the comments guys, a lot to go on - thank you!

Garage swapped the battery for another today and I'm rather gutted to report I have the same problem with a brand new charged/tested cell - so we can rule that out as a potential fault.

Also, got the rubber boot off the starter end of cable and it's squeeky clean as I suspected - no corrosion at all on connectors or wiring. Cleaned it up anyway, but it looks fine.
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daws0n
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PostPosted: 19:45 - 14 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK something kind of odd just happened....

Decided to take a few more measurements with the multimeter -

1. No drop in battery voltage with starter solenoid shorted with screw driver (12.9v with this new cell). Again, no activity from motor either.

2. When pressing the start button, I get the same voltage reading when measuring battery's ground terminal against positive wire on the starter motor end - I assume this means the solenoid's relay must be in good working order?

When taking measurement 2 (misses holding the ground wire on the battery terminal and pressing the button, me poking the positive wire on the starter's input for a reading), the starter motor came to life for a few seconds!

Not sure if poking around with the multimeter had anything to do with it, but very strange coincidence for it to slowly churn for the first time since breaking down.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 14 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

You probably jogged the meagre remnants of one of the brushes into temporary contact with the commutator. Smile

If there's no significant voltage drop when the contacts are shorted then there's no current being drawn by the starter motor. If the voltage appears when the button is pressed then the solenoid is ok.

Starter motor off, strip, clean, replace brushes and rebuild. Thumbs Up
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Chris45
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PostPosted: 12:10 - 15 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Starter motor off, strip, clean, replace brushes and rebuild.


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daws0n
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PostPosted: 21:44 - 15 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok rebuilding the starter motor looks pretty daunting so I have bought a cheap used starter online to tide me over for now - hopefully will get the bike back up and running for next week.

The haynes manual makes a right meal of it, instructing to remove the fuel tank and carburettor before getting to the starter motor removal.. This will of course give plenty of room to work with, but I am wondering if I can get away with leaving the carbs on. Have any fellow er-5 owners on here had experience with this?
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robocog
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PostPosted: 19:47 - 16 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been through a similar dance on a GPZ500 (so same engine)

Starter (on the GPZ) can be removed and replaced without having to remove anything (even managed it with engine crash bars still in place, though was a right faff with them in the way, next time I WILL remove at least the crash bars as I would have done the job a lot faster and without removing quite so much skin in the process)

Upon opening the defunct starter out of curiosity
Brushes had pretty much worn away to nothing and a rather generous coating of old carbon internally

Luckily I had a spare starter and have not yet bothered to buy new brushes or clean up the dusty mess in the old one, but seems easy enough to do based on the brief glance I gave it

Regards
Rob
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TheManWithThe...
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PostPosted: 01:37 - 24 May 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The starter motors are actually pretty simple to work on, and there's plenty of online guides to follow.

You can get a complete rebuild kit from wemoto, but you'll most likely only really need the brushes and the circular clip thingymeybob they're attached to
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daws0n
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PostPosted: 18:31 - 21 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, got the new (old) starter fitted and have been back up and running for a month + fresh MOT.

Over the past few days the same symptoms have been happening with this new starter (a little unresponsive, having to press the button a few times to get it to fire up). I was thinking maybe the replacement starter motor might be on it's way out too, and this evening I couldn't get it to go at all for my commute home (a couple of seconds of firing up, then nothing).

I still had my tool kit under the saddle, and luckily shorting the solenoid got it going right away! Starter sounds healthy, so I'm thinking there must be another fault elsewhere now. I've just ordered a replacement solenoid online but it will take a few days to arrive. It it safe in the meantime to keep on shorting the cables to get it go or should I leave it be?
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Islander
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PostPosted: 19:55 - 21 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not ideal but shorting the terminals won't cause any problems as long as you're careful to avoid accidental shorts to chassis or other earth point with whatever you're using to connect them. It might be worth carrying a spare master fuse just in case. Thumbs Up

I'd rebuild the original starter motor as a spare for the future too. Smile
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