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Post-DAS training near London?

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ggr
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PostPosted: 19:49 - 01 Jul 2018    Post subject: Post-DAS training near London? Reply with quote

Hi all,

I've been looking into doing a DAS course in London but based on word of mouth and my own research, pretty much every place around here basically just teaches you how to pass the test and how to be a decent-ish city rider, with minimal focus on how to corner and brake properly on twisty country roads, which seem like pretty essential skills to have.

I think it would be beneficial to immediately get some more advanced training on a track and in a more rural environment after getting my licence. What are my options?
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P.
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PostPosted: 20:35 - 01 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get licence. Do track day.

It'll get you more used to your bike and you'll see how you can use it far safer on track. Then just use that and general roadcraft to enjoy the roads.

You can do a course with other people once you have a licence but I'd consider it a waste, just ride more.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 06:47 - 02 Jul 2018    Post subject: Re: Post-DAS training near London? Reply with quote

ggr wrote:
Hi all,

I've been looking into doing a DAS course in London but based on word of mouth and my own research, pretty much every place around here basically just teaches you how to pass the test and how to be a decent-ish city rider, with minimal focus on how to corner and brake properly on twisty country roads, which seem like pretty essential skills to have.

I think it would be beneficial to immediately get some more advanced training on a track and in a more rural environment after getting my licence. What are my options?


IAM or ROSPA are the most obvious answers that you'll surely have already come across. But afaik neither use tracks or track days etc. Though both will involve a mix of urban and rural routes.

The IAM course is cheaper than ROSPA iirc - e.g. £150 for the course. Depending on your ability it could take 6 months of observed weekly rides. Most of those you speak to will say do it now before you've acquired bad habits that need breaking - and while you're still used to receiving criticism and advice from an instructor.

Main focus is not so much on machine control (though there'll be bits and bobs of slow riding - which you'll immediately demonstrate you can do, having just been through mod 1 training) - instead the focus is squarely and consistently on observation. I.e. lifting vision, scanning from furthest to nearest and behind, ordering actual and potential hazards in terms of importance, and making a plan on how to deal with them. And repeating this process continually.

The theory here is that good machine control comes from adequate planning, which in turn comes from proper, structured and continuous observation. In some ways, this relegates machine control - stuff like how to swerve, cadence braking (though ABS has presumably obviated that), improving reaction times etc. All that kind of thing tends to be regarded as unnecessary - because good observation and planning means that the rider has dealt with the hazard before it's developed into a situation requiring drastic action.

What you will probably find is that this stress on observation, and how to structure and process the info obtained from it, does make your riding smoother and dare I say it, safer.

So it has something going for it. But whether it satisfies you personally, as a rider, depends on stuff like your general mindset, what you're looking for from biking, and other crap like that. A track day might be better. Or some off-road training - I personally did find that riding a trail bike on unmade roads - mud, gravel and erm muddy gravel - translated into better riding on my road bike, for instance.
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NJD
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PostPosted: 09:16 - 02 Jul 2018    Post subject: Re: Post-DAS training near London? Reply with quote

ggr wrote:
twisty country roads


There's such a thing in that there London; what is this trickery? Shocked Laughing

ggr wrote:
I think it would be beneficial to immediately get some more advanced training on a track and in a more rural environment after getting my licence. What are my options?


Google road, plan route and go ride it.

I wouldn't place more hope on these advance courses than the reality. I haven't done one, mind, but the levels of training schools offer condescend each other; as I've noticed while doing my, ongoing, A2 > A.

Truth is everything they tell you do on the advance course is perfectly safe to do post passing your tests, just that they haven't shown you how to do it. I've toyed with straight lining roundabouts and moving out to the white line on bends, and survived, but they're things that would be considered fails on the Module Two test.

On my last visit to the test centre the examiner advised advance courses -- almost as if they'd been told to promote them now -- and the instructor, outside, recommended them so that he, the person who passed, could, "stop riding like a learner."

On rural roads just remember that you're going to encounter hazards than in the city wouldn't appear -- horses, tractors, annoying slow cyclists on tight bends -- and you'll be fine. To start with you won't be the fastest thing on the road but the joy is making it from A-B in one piece and learning in small increments in assessing bends etc. I used Sunday mornings to start with and now, sometimes, adopt the very long winded route on sunny days to commute.

Providing you can ride, and read the road, you'll be fine: your height of alertness increases when on roads you've never ridden and so slow and steady and be observant.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 09:40 - 02 Jul 2018    Post subject: Re: Post-DAS training near London? Reply with quote

NJD wrote:
but the levels of training schools offer condescend each other


https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/legomessageboards/images/a/aa/LolWut%21.gif/revision/latest?cb=20131104111928
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:47 - 02 Jul 2018    Post subject: Re: Post-DAS training near London? Reply with quote

ggr wrote:
how to corner and brake properly on twisty country roads, which seem like pretty essential skills to have.

Sure, if you plan to go for lap times on twisty country roads.

IAM and RoSPA both teach Roadcraft, and will indeed focus on Making Progress (where's the emergency?).

Read it, apply it, and decide whether it makes sense.
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Powderhead
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PostPosted: 14:11 - 02 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked the same question myself recently: https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=323761

I think the main options are:

> Bikesafe: fifty quid, and a good one-day introductory course to advanced riding. I did one the other day from the Ace, and it was well worth the £50.

> IAM/RoSPA: probably your best option if you're looking for a more advanced riding course. Although, I'm in London too and I couldn't get in touch with RoSPA! I will be starting my training with IAM myself soon.

I'd also say that simply "riding more" is up there with the best training you can get. Do a few track days, have a go at an off-road day, go to wheelie school - there's no real substitute for hours in the saddle.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 16:39 - 02 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Powderhead wrote:
> Bikesafe: fifty quid, and a good one-day introductory course to advanced riding. I did one the other day from the Ace, and it was well worth the £50.
.


That's not very good value compared to IAM where iirc the course costs £150 and you get an unlimited number of observed rides in order to get you to advanced test standard.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 16:42 - 02 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

One other thing about IAM / ROSPA type shit - you find out where all the very best roads are, and how to string them together in entertaining ways. This alone is worth the ticket price - because it could well take you years to suss it out otherwise.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 17:01 - 02 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tru dat, I got taken by surprise up the back road. A local one that I had no idea existed, even.
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NJD
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PostPosted: 21:11 - 02 Jul 2018    Post subject: Re: Post-DAS training near London? Reply with quote

trevor saxe-coburg-gotha wrote:
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/legomessageboards/images/a/aa/LolWut%21.gif/revision/latest?cb=20131104111928


felt smart; didn't google.

late reply because crying.

Thumbs Up Laughing
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Powderhead
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PostPosted: 07:45 - 03 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

trevor saxe-coburg-gotha wrote:
That's not very good value compared to IAM where iirc the course costs £150 and you get an unlimited number of observed rides in order to get you to advanced test standard.


Good point, I guess Confused

It's great value as a taster for someone who's not sure they're ready to commit to c. 6 months of weekly observed rides.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 09:23 - 03 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't have to commit as such - just stump up the cash and attend when - and often, where - you want to. Go once a week, once a month, or randomly. It may even be possible to get an observer to ride with on a purely ad hoc basis. This is admittedly a bit unlikely though - more likely, there'll be one scheduled ride per week, from a pre-arranged meeting point to a given destination. Still, that not withstanding, you can go to as many or as few rides as you want to - and thus take as long as you want to, and as many sessions as you see fit. It is very decent value, really.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 19:58 - 03 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back 15-16years ago I found Rospa training useful and a help in reading the road further ahead in more rural twisty environment's. The lot I trained with were opionated as you'd expect, but there was some quick efficient road riders there.
I'd 100% agree that on any bike especially a sports bike or anything powerful and heavy that getting some track time and instruction is just as important or valuable to becoming a better rider on the road and getting to know what your bike can do within a safe environment.

You want to be comfortable with very heavy braking, finding where the limit of grip is on the front tyre, and also know the way your bike will react to very heavy acceleration in different gears, I.e does it want to wheelie or wheelspin or does it just dig in and love the throttle against the stop under provocation etc.

Once your happy with the straight line stuff, steering and braking, how the bike feels banked over and how much ground clearance you've got in cornering if you don't hang off etc, it all helps you with confidence, how to set the bike up for bends, and when and where the bike is happiest.

It also helps you with finding the best set up for your suspension, ride height etc for fast riding.
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Arfa__
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PostPosted: 22:02 - 03 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Few courses I've done and can recommend:

Kent Fire Bike day at Brand Hatch
£60, 2 newbie sessions on track guided by Kent Fire crew, a quick IAM observed ride (with Kent IAM group), a short slow speed machine control session, a short Biker Down first on scene session and some theory. Great day, lot of taster type stuff squeezed in, to pursue or practice yourself later.
See: https://www.msvtrackdays.com/bike/calendar/2018/july/9-bh-kfr/

Essex Fire Bike lot. They run a day similar to BikeSafe and a machine control day up on Weathersfield Airfield (near Finchingfield). Did the latter which is run with the Hopp Rider Training guys. Great chance to practice lots of skills, slow speed, slalom, emergency braking, getting a feel of locking front/back wheels etc. They really hammer these skills in throughout the day. Both free, but bit of a waiting list.
https://www.essex-fire.gov.uk/Road_Safety/FireBike/FireBike_Advanced_Machine_Skills_Course/

Definitely second the IAM route. Been through the ELAM (East London), learnt a lot and thorough enjoyed the social side too. FWIW ELAM does a yearly trip to Folembray track in Northern France for a road skills day on track. And within the group many members do pursue other track days together.
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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PostPosted: 09:35 - 04 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
(where's the emergency?).

ROSPA et al have – over the decades – probably felt like it’s been a struggle to attract what are perceived to be the most dangerous riders, i.e. those who go too fast. Being a road safety organisation they’ve had to contend with the majority assumption that they’re against fun and thrills – and are run by old, slow codgers, ex 5-0, or both. So I think those whose concern is actually that ROSPA and IAM are in fact too progressive i.e. too fast are probably in a small minority - or have been historically, at least.

Perhaps as the demographic continues to change and fewer lunatic hooligan nutter sports bike-ists come through, and MacGregorist adventure-before-dementia types become the majority, the situation will change. But the degree of change here will be limited by IAM / ROSPA et als continued reliance upon Roadcraft, which advocates progress. So until a new bible is written - with a particular, civilian flavour - progress will be something of a given.

In any case, for 90% of the time, the practical implications of an emphasis on progress means nothing more nor less than keeping pace with traffic. Indeed, given that most traffic is continuously breaking speed limits, what progress actually translates to in reality is going slower than traffic! A related point is that for a lot of associates, strict adherence to speed limits constitutes an impediment to ‘normal’ progress. What’s more, the requirement to never break speed limits is often felt to be dangerous! It invites tailgating. It makes overtakes dodgier (because e.g. a squirt up to 70 in a 60 NSL is strictly verboten). It can mean the rider is subject to poor overtaking by drivers who cut back in on them after making inadequate forward observations. Etc. Etc.

The fact of the matter is that progress is not very progressive. At all. For civvies doing advanced stuff, progress can only be made within the law and without endangering (or even inconveniencing!) other road users and peds. That curtails much of the kind of riding the vast majority of bikers generally do – because, like every other vehicle, most of us break speed limits most of the time. Might only be 45 in a 40, 35 in a 30 - etc. But for ROSPA/IAM, that's far too progressive.

However, and all that notwithstanding, on those occasions when an associate experiences the onus upon them to make progress as uhm onerous – it’s not difficult to defend "slow" riding on some valid grounds or other - poor opportunities for adequate forward observation, bad road surface, thought there was a whiff of diesel in the air etc. etc. Also, I'd guess that a significant number of observers themselves got into IAM / ROSPA etc. after accidents - and will have been easing themselves back into biking when they themselves were associates, lacking confidence enough to make even barely adequate progress. In short there's usually a fair amount of leeway regarding progress, especially for the new associate who might for all kinds of reasons be lacking confidence. Just to repeat - a lot of those who rock up are getting on again after an accident, and want to ride safer. Observers tend to get that. But if an associate is still dawdling after ten rides, yeah – they’re probably going to be less…accommodating.
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