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Itchy
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PostPosted: 08:46 - 14 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Which is a real problem with our politicians, they always seem to find someone to put before the British people.



Why is it a problem with the politicians? You get the politicians you deserve and if you collectively keep on voting for flim flam artistes then who exactly is to blame here?


You're just screeching it's not mah fault!!!
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 09:30 - 14 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
Which is a real problem with our politicians, they always seem to find someone to put before the British people.



Why is it a problem with the politicians? You get the politicians you deserve and if you collectively keep on voting for flim flam artistes then who exactly is to blame here?


You're just screeching it's not mah fault!!!


Not really. Unless you find yourself in the unbelievable position of supporting all the ideas put forward by a politician and are confident he/she is both capable and incorruptible it's a case of choosing the least worst candidate, or standing for Parliament yourself.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 10:27 - 14 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
You get the politicians you deserve and if you collectively keep on voting for flim flam artistes then who exactly is to blame here?


At first, I thought that seems a little crass when you think the country is split 50/50 over the biggest issue in British politics right now. But then again, if the people are blind and confused, perhaps you're right, and they deserve to be led by the blind and confused.

None of our politicians here have had the Trump vision yet, and no one with the required talents has appeared who can galvanise the popular vote. So as Rogerborg has pointed out, we have little choice but to vote purely to try to curb the worst excesses of who we do have. Mind you, with the way things are going, I could see a resurgence for UKIP.

As long as people keep concentrating on the man and the hysteria surrounding him, and not the ideas, nothing will change for the better.
People were screaming for such change before Brexit came along - no more globalisation! Politics for the people! Where did all that go? Confused
Brexit should only be the first step.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 11:13 - 14 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
None of our politicians here have had the Trump vision yet,


Trump cares about Trump. Putin yeah? He cares about Putin. Xi? He cares about Xi.

chickenstrip wrote:
As long as people keep concentrating on the man


There are many valid things to criticise.

chickenstrip wrote:
and the hysteria surrounding him, and not the ideas,


There is even more to be critical about in regards to his ideas.

chickenstrip wrote:
Where did all that go?


It vanished when individuals realised there is a price to change and some aren't willing to pay it or are unwilling to recognise the price and think things won't change.

Consider food. 30-45% deficit.

Solutions?

Arrow Buy from the US/China - Except shipping and inspection costs more = increase in food prices/lower standards. But 16 million people don't have £100 in savings[1] how will they cope with increased food costs other than consume less = lower living standards.

Arrow Drop tariffs and standards = drop in food prices but bankrupt UK farmers and reduce food security even more.[2]

Arrow Grow more UK food = lower UK food variety + demolish a LOT of houses and live in high rise to maximise arable land.

Lots of solutions but also costs to those solutions.

chickenstrip wrote:
no one with the required talents has appeared who can galvanise the popular vote.


It's not a case of talent. It is a case of will the public accept it?

There are plenty of solutions but all of them come with unpalatable costs meaning such a politician would never get near office.

For instance hot potato of immigration. Lets cut to 0 Japan manages!!

Yeah Japan also has 75 hour working weeks and people dying from overwork.
They need to pay for health care and get bog all pensions and mortgages so big they pass onto their children.

Oh and you'll of course need to pay higher taxes to boost training to create a native work force to fill the skills gaps. Don't want to pay for it? Well then it's no solution then.




[1] https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/blog/millions-at-risk-with-savings-of-100-or-less
[2] Patrick Minford
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 20:40 - 14 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
None of our politicians here have had the Trump vision yet,


Trump cares about Trump.


Probably true, but there are more people than just Trump in America (and elsewhere for that matter) that share his political and economic ideas, his ideas of putting your own country first - which doesn't mean saying everyone else can go to hell. If you don't do it to some extent, you wreck it, and then what use can you possibly be to anyone else?

Itchy wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
As long as people keep concentrating on the man


There are many valid things to criticise.


As far as the man is concerned, I don't disagree.

Itchy wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
and the hysteria surrounding him, and not the ideas,


There is even more to be critical about in regards to his ideas.


Show me an ideology that doesn't have things to criticise.

Itchy wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
Where did all that go?


It vanished when individuals realised there is a price to change and some aren't willing to pay it or are unwilling to recognise the price and think things won't change.


Yes, the British people lack courage and self belief.

Itchy wrote:

Arrow Buy from the US/China

Arrow Grow more UK food = lower UK food variety + demolish a LOT of houses and live in high rise to maximise arable land.



Hey, we get food from all over the world, and all imported food has extra costs. And we grow our own. That's just the way of the world. What has changed? I'm pretty sure I'm missing your point there.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 20:57 - 14 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Consider food. 30-45% deficit.

Thinking

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 21:08 - 14 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The key point is brexit means food prices in ANY scenario increase.

Buy more from the US/CN/IN? Domestic producers get undermined and go under.

Buy more from non EU and non EU agreement places = longer distance = higher costs.

Grow more UK food, except this requires massive investment for green houses or mechanisation = higher costs.

There are 16 million people where a cost of living increase by £2 a week will mean they can't afford to live. How do you square this with increasing prices.
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Val
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PostPosted: 21:27 - 14 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Itchy wrote:
Consider food. 30-45% deficit.

Thinking

Are you thinking what I'm thinking?


You read too much Jack London that what I'm thinking:

https://www.online-literature.com/london/85/
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:31 - 14 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
The key point is brexit means food prices in ANY scenario increase.

Buy more from the US/CN/IN? Domestic producers get undermined and go under.

Buy more from non EU and non EU agreement places = longer distance = higher costs.

Grow more UK food, except this requires massive investment for green houses or mechanisation = higher costs.

There are 16 million people where a cost of living increase by £2 a week will mean they can't afford to live. How do you square this with increasing prices.


It seems you're saying damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Well, you've got to do one thing or the other.
Is there anything in this world that one is not already doing, anything, that doesn't incur more costs?
We should invest in our own.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 23:53 - 14 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good news, everyone. Our non-Brexit is non-negotiable.

Nobody could be that sincerely retarded. Surely. Surely?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 08:52 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Is there anything in this world that one is not already doing, anything, that doesn't incur more costs?


Nope. The funny thing is doing nothing also has costs.

chickenstrip wrote:
We should invest in our own.


Yeah about that
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:41 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

May: back my Brexit-in-name-only or there will not even be a Brexit-in-name-only.

As she becomes ever more confident that there aren't 48 pro-democracy Tories left, we enter the end game of Remoan: declare Bremission Impossible and revoke Article 50 or re-accede, whatever suits Berlin best.

The only surprising thing is that Davis and Baker are feigning surprise at her betrayal. Catch up chaps, it's been obvious to the rest of us since the Remoaner stitch-up that handed her the keys to Number 10.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:37 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
Is there anything in this world that one is not already doing, anything, that doesn't incur more costs?


Nope. The funny thing is doing nothing also has costs.


And there you have pointed out that your arguments in this thread are pointless. Try being a little more constructive.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 13:23 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


And there you have pointed out that your arguments in this thread are pointless. Try being a little more constructive.



I'm perfectly serious.
Don't build port facilities? Then you'll have to pay more for a rush job for contractors that have you over a barrel.

The new nuclear power plants are an example of this. The decision to build them was delayed for years and years until it was too late so they could dictate terms.


Don't educate your native population? Well you now need people from outside.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:44 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, we get that you have utter contempt for the country in which for some unfathomable reason you choose to live.

How does Brexit make that worse?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:47 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

He is right about our lack of investment at home though. Trump knows this, as do his voters, and they are doing something about it. Half of our population is too selfish and cowardly to admit it. They want the EU to provide all the investment for them, hoping that they will have to commit nothing of their own, even though the EU doesn't even act in their interest. They're timid and lazy. They hold weakness, and submission to others as their guiding values. It's easy to have contempt for them.

Pass the popcorn
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 15:28 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
He is right about our lack of investment at home though. Trump knows this, as do his voters, and they are doing something about it. Half of our population is too selfish and cowardly to admit it. They want the EU to provide all the investment for them, hoping that they will have to commit nothing of their own, even though the EU doesn't even act in their interest. They're timid and lazy. They hold weakness, and submission to others as their guiding values. It's easy to have contempt for them.

Pass the popcorn


In reality a lot of the 'investment' that the EU provides, with 'our' money, would never go there otherwise. Too London/south-centric.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:54 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
In reality a lot of the 'investment' that the EU provides, with 'our' money, would never go there otherwise. Too London/south-centric.

In reality, that's yet another piece of Remoaner crystal ballistry.

We'll only know for sure if we achieve Brexit. So I guess we'll have to just keep guessing.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 16:25 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The financial hub of London is the only reason the EU is interested in Britain at all. That's why they're so upset that we've left. Or want to. Some of us. It's just another thing that needs to be made to work in our favour, instead of theirs. And of course, in the interests of the regions instead of just itself. If it's only going to work for itself, then London might as well be an independent nation.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 17:07 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
The financial hub of London is the only reason the EU is interested in Britain at all. That's why they're so upset that we've left. Or want to. Some of us. It's just another thing that needs to be made to work in our favour, instead of theirs. And of course, in the interests of the regions instead of just itself. If it's only going to work for itself, then London might as well be an independent nation.


The only reason the EU is interested in us is our financial contribution. Other than that they can't stand us (that's on a political level, not a personal one). We aren't Europeans like them. Never have been and hopefully never will.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:41 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
We aren't Europeans like them. Never have been and hopefully never will.


Which is why we've had close ties with the US for so long, and should still do so, now more than ever. But the Remainers want to throw that away because of one man.
Britain has often been the US-Europe go-between, but with Brexit the EU stands to lose that, or thinks it does. So Macron goes to Trump, but makes the mistake of trying to tell him what he should do, and is snubbed for it Laughing
Trump hates Merkel anyway, so she can't do it. And the EU can't admit to itself how weak it is in the face of US policy, and Trump's willingness to make new alliances without them.
But we could still have influence over the US, if we had the courage to properly leave the EU, and open our eyes to what Trump is actually trying to do.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 17:51 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
We aren't Europeans like them. Never have been and hopefully never will.


Which is why we've had close ties with the US for so long, and should still do so, now more than ever. But the Remainers want to throw that away because of one man.
Britain has often been the US-Europe go-between, but with Brexit the EU stands to lose that, or thinks it does. So Macron goes to Trump, but makes the mistake of trying to tell him what he should do, and is snubbed for it Laughing
Trump hates Merkel anyway, so she can't do it. And the EU can't admit to itself how weak it is in the face of US policy, and Trump's willingness to make new alliances without them.
But we could still have influence over the US, if we had the courage to properly leave the EU, and open our eyes to what Trump is actually trying to do.


Yep. agree.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:40 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Which is why we've had close ties with the US for so long, and should still do so, now more than ever. But the Remainers want to throw that away because of one man.

Who is in effect proposing "Murca First, UK a close second, everyone else is a foe". But Treasona just shrugs and says "So sorry, can't be done. Speak to Berlin."


The Duke of Mogg has come out and said "Liar, liar, leather pants on fire.", or as close as he can bring himself to it.

Lord Jacob Ritz-Cracker wrote:
It would have been more straightforward to admit that no real Brexit was the intention all along rather than trying to gull Brexiteers.

Perhaps we ought to have realised earlier on that a Remainer would stick with Remain.

In the language of Shakespeare: Well, duh.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 21:50 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
In reality a lot of the 'investment' that the EU provides, with 'our' money, would never go there otherwise. Too London/south-centric.

In reality, that's yet another piece of Remoaner crystal ballistry.

We'll only know for sure if we achieve Brexit. So I guess we'll have to just keep guessing.


Why wasn't it spent there prior to the EU then?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 22:08 - 15 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:


Lord Jacob Ritz-Cracker wrote:
It would have been more straightforward to admit that no real Brexit was the intention all along rather than trying to gull Brexiteers.

Perhaps we ought to have realised earlier on that a Remainer would stick with Remain.

In the language of Shakespeare: Well, duh.


We got a chance to vote for Brexit. Unfortunately, we didn't get a chance to vote for someone that would implement it.
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