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shadow 125 starting issue

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ART-ADS
Nova Slayer



Joined: 09 Feb 2018
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PostPosted: 09:31 - 13 Jul 2018    Post subject: shadow 125 starting issue Reply with quote

hi, I'm having issues with this shadow I just bought (£1400)

the day after I got the bike it stated having issues starting on the button and two days after all that happens is the headlight goes off no sound from the starter at all.

the starter motor is a pain in the arse to take out so that's kinda a last resort

but it bump starts fine.

also when its cold and I pull back the throttle when I just start the bike it can cut out, but seems to be ok once it revs once then it acts normal, probably due to lack of use from previous owner I think

haven't had the bike on the street yet, will be Wednesday next week when I take it out first. and id like to have sorted the issue out by then.

thanks in advance any advice please
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Islander
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PostPosted: 09:48 - 13 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flat or dead battery? Is the charging circuit working properly?

Time for multimeter tests. Thumbs Up
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:00 - 13 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

£1400 for a 11+ year old 125? Vince Candelin special?

As above, spend £5 on a multimeter and diagnose, don't just start guessing.

Something else to try is shorting the starter solenoid terminals with an (insulated) screwdriver. If the starter spins then you've got power from the battery but a problem on the starter circuit, either the solenoid itself or the starter switch.

The dead headlight does suggest that the battery is borked though, although the good news is that if it runs OK after bump starting then your charging circuit may be OK.

But... multimeter. No guessing.
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ART-ADS
Nova Slayer



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PostPosted: 10:02 - 13 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
Flat or dead battery? Is the charging circuit working properly?

Time for multimeter tests. Thumbs Up


when I turn the key the lights come on before I've bumped started it which suggests the battery is fine? its just when I press the starter button the light goes off? what does that indicate that the starter circuit is shorting out?
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ART-ADS
Nova Slayer



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PostPosted: 10:06 - 13 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

ART-ADS wrote:
Islander wrote:
Flat or dead battery? Is the charging circuit working properly?

Time for multimeter tests. Thumbs Up


when I turn the key the lights come on before I've bumped started it which suggests the battery is fine? its just when I press the starter button the light goes off? what does that indicate that the starter circuit is shorting out?


these bikes fetch 2-3 grand. not even joking 1400 was a good deal. I feel most people are living in the clouds about how much these bikes are worth, maybe a few hundred quid when you were a lad but today for a 15bhp water cooled v twin in half decent shape its not a bad price at all
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jaffa90
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PostPosted: 10:12 - 13 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

The starter motor takes a lot more current than a headlight and will steal it.
You should not touch the throttle on a cold start.
You have good advice on here so take it.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:46 - 13 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, that's good news. It sounds (sight unseen) as though your battery is weak (or shorting internally under load). That it's running once started is hopeful.

Have you tried jump starting from a (engine off) car battery?

However, before you replace the battery, I would urge you to check the voltage with the engine off (should be ~12.5V, I expect it'll be lower), and with it running (should be 14-15V, but... Honda).

If the reg/rec is pumped (Honda...) then it might be over-voltage, and that's what's killed the battery. It'll kill another if you just replace it.


And now back to our scheduled BCF.

ART-ADS wrote:
these bikes fetch 2-3 grand.

Dealers are certainly asking that for 3000 mile garage queens, and private sellers rave about them (while trying to offload them).

ART-ADS wrote:
not even joking

Then why am I laughing?

ART-ADS wrote:
I feel most people are living in the clouds about how much these bikes are worth

Well, on that we can agree.
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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Islander
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PostPosted: 11:12 - 13 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

ART-ADS wrote:
Islander wrote:
Flat or dead battery? Is the charging circuit working properly?

Time for multimeter tests. Thumbs Up


when I turn the key the lights come on before I've bumped started it which suggests the battery is fine? its just when I press the starter button the light goes off? what does that indicate that the starter circuit is shorting out?


A starter motor draws a lot more current from a battery than lights do and will cause a huge voltage drop on a dead or flat battery.

Get your multimeter on DC (20v if it doesn't auto range) across the battery terminals with the ignition off should read around 12.5v or slightly higher. If it's less then it needs charging. If it's lower than 11.5 volts then it's probably dead.

Before you consider replacing it, test the charging circuit output. Get the engine started, put your multimeter across the battery as before and take the revs to around 4-5k. The voltage should be around 14.5v. If it's significantly higher or doesn't change from the reading you had before the engine was started then suspect the charging circuit.
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ART-ADS
Nova Slayer



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PostPosted: 11:42 - 13 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:


A starter motor draws a lot more current from a battery than lights do and will cause a huge voltage drop on a dead or flat battery.

Get your multimeter on DC (20v if it doesn't auto range) across the battery terminals with the ignition off should read around 12.5v or slightly higher. If it's less then it needs charging. If it's lower than 11.5 volts then it's probably dead.

Before you consider replacing it, test the charging circuit output. Get the engine started, put your multimeter across the battery as before and take the revs to around 4-5k. The voltage should be around 14.5v. If it's significantly higher or doesn't change from the reading you had before the engine was started then suspect the charging circuit.


thanks i'll try pick one up. in the meantime if I rig it up to a car like with jump cables will that tell me if the starter is the issue or the battery
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Islander
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PostPosted: 12:27 - 13 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

ART-ADS wrote:


thanks i'll try pick one up. in the meantime if I rig it up to a car like with jump cables will that tell me if the starter is the issue or the battery


Sort of. There's also the solenoid in the starting circuit - it should pull in with a click when you press the button, and the starter should spin.

You can check whether the solenoid is the issue by *carefully* shorting the two terminals that the thick cables connect to. Be very careful not to short anything to the frame/ground especially if you've got a car battery connected. If you short them and the starter still doesn't spin then it's the starter motor and it'll probably need new brushes.

However, from the 'lights go out' symptom you described in the first post, it sounds like the starter is pulling current and the battery can't supply enough. It is possible for the starter to jam and pull current without turning but it's the least likely of the possibilities. You'd probably notice some smouldering insulation on the battery leads if this were the case and the battery were healthy.
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ART-ADS
Nova Slayer



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PostPosted: 15:12 - 13 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:


Sort of. There's also the solenoid in the starting circuit - it should pull in with a click when you press the button, and the starter should spin.

You can check whether the solenoid is the issue by *carefully* shorting the two terminals that the thick cables connect to. Be very careful not to short anything to the frame/ground especially if you've got a car battery connected. If you short them and the starter still doesn't spin then it's the starter motor and it'll probably need new brushes.

However, from the 'lights go out' symptom you described in the first post, it sounds like the starter is pulling current and the battery can't supply enough. It is possible for the starter to jam and pull current without turning but it's the least likely of the possibilities. You'd probably notice some smouldering insulation on the battery leads if this were the case and the battery were healthy.


ok. i'll hook the battery up to the car and see.

when I first got the bike it would work fine, then it only worked half the time like then it made a sound and didn't turn over and now it doenst make a sound at all.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 16:16 - 13 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

ART-ADS wrote:
when I first got the bike it would work fine, then it only worked half the time like then it made a sound and didn't turn over and now it doenst make a sound at all.


Fucked reg/rec not charging battery - Calling it now.

Honda's are good at this.
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dydey90
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PostPosted: 16:29 - 13 Jul 2018    Post subject: Re: shadow 125 starting issue Reply with quote

ART-ADS wrote:
the day after I got the bike it stated having issues starting on the button and two days after all that happens is the headlight goes off no sound from the starter at all.

...


haven't had the bike on the street yet, will be Wednesday next week when I take it out first.


This could also be a problem. Either take it out, or at least let it idle for a good 10-15 mins otherwise it's not going to be able to replace the charge in the battery that you've just used by starting it up, even if it is in perfect running order.
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ART-ADS
Nova Slayer



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PostPosted: 20:44 - 13 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update

When attached to a car with jump leads all i Hear is a click sound once when I push the starter

When I take the jump leads off I hear nothing? WHat does this mean
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 07:16 - 14 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try it again. Short the starter motor terminals with an *insulated* screwdriver.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 11:50 - 14 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThatDippyTwat wrote:
Try it again. Short the starter motor terminals with an *insulated* screwdriver.


He means the solenoid terminals - don't short the starter motor! Shocked Laughing
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jaffa90
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PostPosted: 12:05 - 14 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
ThatDippyTwat wrote:
Try it again. Short the starter motor terminals with an *insulated* screwdriver.


He means the solenoid terminals - don't short the starter motor! Shocked Laughing


Very true, also check for good connections from the battery to the bike.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 12:32 - 14 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
ThatDippyTwat wrote:
Try it again. Short the starter motor terminals with an *insulated* screwdriver.


He means the solenoid terminals - don't short the starter motor! Shocked Laughing


Yeah, I did mean solenoid - 2hrs sleep does that to you.
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ART-ADS
Nova Slayer



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PostPosted: 11:02 - 16 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThatDippyTwat wrote:
Try it again. Short the starter motor terminals with an *insulated* screwdriver.


Which part are the terminals?

Also guys it’s not the battery surely otherwise it would have started when it had a full charge and jump leads on the thing! Could it be jammed or somethin
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Islander
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PostPosted: 12:34 - 16 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

ART-ADS wrote:
ThatDippyTwat wrote:
Try it again. Short the starter motor terminals with an *insulated* screwdriver.


Which part are the terminals?

Also guys it’s not the battery surely otherwise it would have started when it had a full charge and jump leads on the thing! Could it be jammed or somethin


In case you missed the posts above or didn't read them, NOT the starter motor terminals.

The ones you want to short are the starter solenoid terminals. There will be two, usually under rubber insulating boots. One will connect to the heavy wire feeding the starter motor, the other to a heavy wire coming from the battery +ve terminal.

Be very careful when doing this, if you don't have an insulated screwdriver then cover the shaft with insulating tape and leave just enough of the head exposed to go across the terminals. In any case, be careful not to touch the chassis or any exposed metalwork other than the terminals with the screwdriver. If you short them out with a known good battery connected then the starter motor should spin.

If it does then check the connector with thin wires that goes back to the switch and use your meter to check whether the switch is working. If the switch is fine then it's most probably a faulty solenoid.

If you short the terminals and the starter motor doesn't spin then it's a starter motor problem and you're going to have to strip it down.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:56 - 16 Jul 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Starter relay / solenoid.

The two terminals he's fiddling with, bridge across them with an insulated screwdriver. They will spark, and you can get a small spot weld, so be prepared to yank it free. That will send voltage directly from your battery to the starter motor.

If it doesn't spin (and you don't have a blown fuse anywhere), then the problem is with the starter, engine earth or battery.

If it does spin strongly, then your problem is with the relay or the low tension wiring leading to it from the starter button.

This is really just the most basic thing you can check without a multimeter. With one, you can stop guessing and diagnose the problem in a few minutes.
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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