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Polarbear |
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Polarbear Super Spammer
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Karma :
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Posted: 20:25 - 22 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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You know why I want a no deal brexit. Simply because a no deal is the only way we the oiks will ever know what has actually been given away by our lord and masters who want to stay on the EU gravy train. It's the only way we will ever take back full control of everything from the EU.
Any 'deal' will involve ceding powers and decisions to the EU and that's the one thing that I really don't want.
And no deal means we can kick Val out. ____________________ Triumph Trophy Launch Edition |
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Kawasaki Jimbo |
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Kawasaki Jimbo World Chat Champion
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Val |
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Val World Chat Champion
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Kawasaki Jimbo |
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Kawasaki Jimbo World Chat Champion
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Val |
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Val World Chat Champion
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Itchy |
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Itchy Super Spammer
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Karma :
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Posted: 00:10 - 23 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | Straight out of the Itchy playbook. The old, "I have succeeded in life and will profit however Brexit turns out, therefore I am unbiased, objective and will now tell you poor fools my truths." Not very endearing, or convincing, but a good wind up. |
Is that the defence you've resorted to?
That everything is a wind up? So when are you going to give that list of tangible benefits? And how great it will be? Me I got wealthier without any action purely because my assets are not in GBP. I didn't put in any shorts.
The most interesting question this raises however is why you are so confident that ruthless people that is both inside AND outside will not exploit the situation to their own benefit and to your detriment?
We have seen since the start of time that humans are ruthless and will exploit the weakness of others for their own personal gain. There have been few if any exceptions to this.
This isn't a statement of intent it is merely the truth. Why will people be nice to you? Were the British nice to the Qing in their time of need? The Irish in their famines?
Were the Americans nice and kind of the Russians post USSR collapse? No they were flooded with con-men looking to exploit the situation and make a quick buck.
When people and nations are weak the exploitation has been great. I could talk about about the final days of the Qing, or post ww2 Germany, Japan post WW2. Many can't really relate to this.
What we do have in living memory is Cyprus. It's a modern 1st world state. When the banking system fell over lots of vultures descended to take advantage of the chaos in the short term and the people got rinsed in the longer term.
The 2008 crash lots of vultures sprang up after that for a while.
What makes you think other vultures won't take advantage of the situation for their own benefit?
Consider even 'friendly' nations like Austalia, NZ and Canada have rejected the WTO schedules as they see an opportunity to enrich themselves.
Your own government? The UK government blocked tariffs on steel. Why would they protect you? ____________________ Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching. |
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Suntan Sid |
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Suntan Sid World Chat Champion
Joined: 07 May 2009 Karma :
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Kawasaki Jimbo |
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Kawasaki Jimbo World Chat Champion
Joined: 09 Oct 2015 Karma :
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Posted: 20:53 - 24 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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Itchy wrote: | Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | Straight out of the Itchy playbook. The old, "I have succeeded in life and will profit however Brexit turns out, therefore I am unbiased, objective and will now tell you poor fools my truths." Not very endearing, or convincing, but a good wind up. |
Is that the defence you've resorted to?
That everything is a wind up? |
Not everything, but when you claim to be unbiased and objective yet you post selective stats, comments and sources aimed only at criticising the referendum result that looks more like a wind-up.
Itchy wrote: | So when are you going to give that list of tangible benefits? And how great it will be? Me I got wealthier without any action purely because my assets are not in GBP. I didn't put in any shorts. |
No need for a list, and I've explained before. I recognise we're in for a tough time economically in the short and even the mid-term, unlike some, but I simply don't like the ever-expanding scope of the EU. I fear what it will become and I want us out. I even think Brexit may reign in the EU's ambition, which would be a good thing from my point of view.
Itchy wrote: | The most interesting question this raises however is why you are so confident that ruthless people that is both inside AND outside will not exploit the situation to their own benefit and to your detriment? |
I'm not. Of course they will, they'll try like they always have. That's not unique to the current circumstances. In fact it's nature.
Itchy wrote: | When people and nations are weak the exploitation has been great. I could talk about about the final days of the Qing, or post ww2 Germany, Japan post WW2. Many can't really relate to this. |
"To the victor the spoils," but in fact the two world wars put the UK in huge debt (to the USA). Rationing ended in Germany in 1950 but in the UK it continued for another 4 years, while Germany was to some extent rebuilt by the allies (perhaps learning the lessons of the 1918 Armistice).
Itchy wrote: | Your own government? The UK government blocked tariffs on steel. Why would they protect you? |
More chance of reigning in a UK government than a remote and disparate EU one. The "bail-in" which Suntan Sid refers to was the first implementation of an EU decision which the UK apparently voted for, but I wasn't aware of it as a policy until much later. I suspect if the UK had independently tried to put it into law it would have been closely scrutinised at home and ruled out, but it seemed to have been signed off unseen by the rest of us. |
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Itchy |
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Itchy Super Spammer
Joined: 07 Apr 2005 Karma :
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Sload |
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Sload World Chat Champion
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Ste |
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Ste Not Work Safe
Joined: 01 Sep 2002 Karma :
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Posted: 22:19 - 25 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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Start another thread cos you don't like how this one is going? |
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Sload |
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Sload World Chat Champion
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Ste |
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Ste Not Work Safe
Joined: 01 Sep 2002 Karma :
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Posted: 22:33 - 25 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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Vallage has provided financial advice for Brexit. |
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Sload |
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Sload World Chat Champion
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Posted: 22:34 - 25 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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Yeh but he screeches too much ____________________ Honda Varadero >> Triumph Speed Four >> Honda CBR1100xx |
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Val |
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Val World Chat Champion
Joined: 03 Nov 2012 Karma :
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Posted: 01:35 - 26 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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- Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Oct 2013 Karma :
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Posted: 10:22 - 26 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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Good. It was a weak effort at leaving the EU.
We need to leave the EU, not pretend to leave. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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- Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Oct 2013 Karma :
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Posted: 09:39 - 03 Oct 2018 Post subject: |
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So with the Chequers Deal so prevelant in the news, does anyone actually know the key points?
May is insisting it's the best deal, but she wanted to remain in the EU anyway, so you have to wonder if the deal is more to appease the EU, than to deliver Brexit as voted for.
The main points I reckon most voted on were -
Regain border control, end freedom of movement and regain control over immigration.
Be able to arrange our own trade deals outside of the EU and not have to continue paying the EU for access to a market where we import more than we export.
Regain sovereignty with control over our rules and laws.
Does Chequers achieve any of this? I'm struggling to see much of it in Al Beeb's brief breakdown.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44749993
For immigration control, they say this...
Quote: | The agreement says it will end free movement of people "giving the UK back control over how many people enter the country". |
Sounds about right eh? Until you read this...
Quote: | A "mobility framework" will be set up to allow UK and EU citizens to travel to each other's territories, and apply for study and work. |
"And apply for" means, just tell them you're going to find a job and the rules are no different to now. Great.
With regards to trade, we're still going to pay the EU, still going to follow their rules and regulations on goods, still going to be controlled by their competition rules (you know, giving government contracts to German companies, that sort of thing).
With regards to sovereignty and laws...We're going to make our own decisions, but they have to follow EU law. Way to go Theresa...
Quote: | But, decisions by UK courts would involve "due regard paid to EU case law in areas where the UK continued to apply a common rulebook".
Cases will still be referred to the European Court of Justice (ECJ) as the interpreter of EU rules, but "cannot resolve disputes between the two". |
There's 100 pages of this deal. Does anyone yet have a concise description of the main points or is it all this vaguely worded as not to sound like the nearest thing to still being controlled by the EU, which May could get away with? ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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Riejufixing |
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Riejufixing World Chat Champion
Joined: 24 Jun 2018 Karma :
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Posted: 10:47 - 03 Oct 2018 Post subject: |
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Oh, for God's sake. Go away and read the bloody thing. Stop picking up fag-ends and getting the wobbles.
Take the first sentence of the BBC's "condensed version" you point out, which is nearly three months old:
"The UK will "maintain a common rulebook for all goods" with the EU, including agricultural products, after Brexit."
And compare it to reality (chapter 1, 7 (a) ); read the whole sentence. You will see that they've missed something out.
What pisses me off is the utter ignorance around, coupled with a seeming unwillingness to even consider that the BBC's, the EU's, the ERG's, the remainers' or the second cousin's dog's owner's friend that they met down the pub, Uncle Tom Cobley and all might not actually be telling the truth because they have their own interests.
If the Chequers' White Paper is too elusive, it's here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/725288/The_future_relationship_between_the_United_Kingdom_and_the_European_Union.pdf
Edit: I re-open this to add:
Quote: | There's 100 pages of this deal. Does anyone yet have a concise description of the main points or is it all this vaguely worded as not to sound like the nearest thing to still being controlled by the EU, which May could get away with? |
There cannot be a "concise description of the main points". The White Paper is a policy document, setting out proposals for legislation[1]. It *IS* concise. The points are mostly interlinked. Look at the example above, where the BBC mislead. Forget about the conspiracy theorists, "we'll be controlled by the EU, May's lying" etc. We're leaving, and Chequers' is a good deal for us if it can be rammed through/up/around the EU naysayers.
[1] Some legislation based on Chequers' has already successfully transited parliament, received Royal Assent and is now law, you will be aware. |
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- Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Oct 2013 Karma :
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Posted: 12:53 - 03 Oct 2018 Post subject: |
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Riejufixing wrote: | Oh, for God's sake. Go away and read the bloody thing. Stop picking up fag-ends and getting the wobbles. |
And you've read the 100 pages have you? Feck off have you. Tell us what the key points are then.
Quote: | There cannot be a "concise description of the main points". |
Of course there can. It sounds more to me, that it's been worded as so effing vague, that nobody really knows what it means. That way we can all call it Brexit, even though it means nothing of the sort.
I strongly suspect this is May's plan to remain at least mainly in the EU, in everything but name. This was the entire point of my post.
Nobody has a clue exactly what this deal seems to involve. The wording is so vague, it's typical May sound bytes which tend to mean the opposite of what she promises for "Brexit means Brexit".
It looks Like Brexit mans Remain. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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Monkeywrenche... |
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Monkeywrenche... Nearly there...
Joined: 27 Mar 2015 Karma :
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Im-a-Ridah |
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Im-a-Ridah World Chat Champion
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 Karma :
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Posted: 14:45 - 03 Oct 2018 Post subject: |
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Riejufixing wrote: | Oh, for God's sake. Go away and read the bloody thing. Stop picking up fag-ends and getting the wobbles.
Take the first sentence of the BBC's "condensed version" you point out, which is nearly three months old:
" The UK will "maintain a common rulebook for all goods" with the EU, including agricultural products, after Brexit."
And compare it to reality (chapter 1, 7 (a) ); read the whole sentence. You will see that they've missed something out.
What pisses me off is the utter ignorance around, coupled with a seeming unwillingness to even consider that the BBC's, the EU's, the ERG's, the remainers' or the second cousin's dog's owner's friend that they met down the pub, Uncle Tom Cobley and all might not actually be telling the truth because they have their own interests.
If the Chequers' White Paper is too elusive, it's here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/725288/The_future_relationship_between_the_United_Kingdom_and_the_European_Union.pdf
Edit: I re-open this to add:
Quote: | There's 100 pages of this deal. Does anyone yet have a concise description of the main points or is it all this vaguely worded as not to sound like the nearest thing to still being controlled by the EU, which May could get away with? |
There cannot be a "concise description of the main points". The White Paper is a policy document, setting out proposals for legislation[1]. It *IS* concise. The points are mostly interlinked. Look at the example above, where the BBC mislead. Forget about the conspiracy theorists, "we'll be controlled by the EU, May's lying" etc. We're leaving, and Chequers' is a good deal for us if it can be rammed through/up/around the EU naysayers.
[1] Some legislation based on Chequers' has already successfully transited parliament, received Royal Assent and is now law, you will be aware. |
The problem is that Theresa is seeking to renegotiate Britain's membership of the EU, but the referendum result was to leave. In the referendum the other choice was not "remain", it was "renegotiate Britain's membership of the EU". It was a vote on a deal, and the people said NO. |
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Im-a-Ridah |
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Im-a-Ridah World Chat Champion
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 Karma :
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Posted: 15:18 - 03 Oct 2018 Post subject: |
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Chequers in summary is this:
Britain is an independent sovereign state. We are taking back control of [policy]. In its place we will seek a new agreement which reimplements 80% of [policy] under a different name.
Almost every provision begins with a tough statement on opting out, then follows with a more subtle, complex statement ambiguously talking about a "sovereign choice" to, in short, opt back in.
For example, page 10:
The UK will no longer be part of the EU’s common policies on foreign, defence, security, justice and home affairs. Instead,
the Government is proposing a new security partnership that maintains close cooperation. the Government’s vision includes:
1. maintaining existing operational capabilities that the UK and the EU deploy. ability for law enforcement agencies to share
critical data and information. practical cooperation to investigate serious criminality and terrorism – cooperating on the basis of existing tools and measures.
2. participation by the UK in key agencies, including Europol and Eurojust. share expertise and information. officers and legal experts working in close proximity. – accepting the rules of these agencies and contributing to their costs. EU police offers still able to police in the UK
3. coordination on foreign policy, defence and development issues. n.b currently coordinate means subordinate i.e we implement their policy
4. annual negotiations on access to waters and the sharing of fishing So we must negotiate with the EU for permission to catch our own fish. Status quo renamed
Another page, at random: Page 32 (actually the substance is on page 33):
1.4.1 Ending free movement of people tough talk
Free movement of people will end as the UK leaves the EU. tough talk
1.4.2 Future mobility arrangements
the UK will make a sovereign choice in a defined number of areas to seek reciprocal mobility arrangements with the EU. and then opts back in
reciprocal arrangements that:
+ support businesses to provide services
+ travel freely, without a visa, for tourism and temporary business activity
etc Status quo! |
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- Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Oct 2013 Karma :
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Posted: 15:19 - 03 Oct 2018 Post subject: |
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Monkeywrencher wrote: | mpd72 CPT wrote: |
And you've read the 100 pages have you? Feck off have you. Tell us what the key points are then.
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Don't you believe it's possible to read 100 pages?
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You haven't either. Why hasn't May and her cronies produced a clear bullet point of the major parts, instead of leaving it as an ambiguous, tedious 100 page bore fest?
It's deliberate IMO, because it does not deliver what people voted for.
I repeat...
mpd72 CPT wrote: |
And you've read the 100 pages have you? Feck off have you. Tell us what the key points are then.
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Her speech today contained something along the lines of
Quote: | "It would be foolish for me to say we're not going to entertain a no deal Brexit, because that would weaken our position". |
No shit Sherlock, the problem is, everyone knows you're not preparing for one.
The EU as well as many in this country, can see right through your white noise sound bites.
She's one of the worst for avoiding the topic by reeling out pre-prepared sound bites which have no sense or meaning. Today's was a classic.
The 100 page document is not an answer to what the deal is, from what I've seen, it's a load of white noise sound bites, with very little pf actual substance.
Such as us "Ending freedom of movement and getting control over immigration" then announcing "anyone can come here so long as they pretend they're coming here to study or find a job". The second part makes a nonsense of the first. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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- Super Spammer
Joined: 22 Oct 2013 Karma :
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Posted: 15:24 - 03 Oct 2018 Post subject: |
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Im-a-Ridah wrote: |
Almost every provision begins with a tough statement on opting out, then follows with a more subtle, complex statement ambiguously talking about a "sovereign choice" to, in short, opt back in.
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^^ This exactly.
All points start with a sound bite which appears to be what people voted for, then an explanation follows which is nothing of the sort.
This is may in every interview on the subject. Brexit means Brexit, which really means Remain. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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Riejufixing |
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Riejufixing World Chat Champion
Joined: 24 Jun 2018 Karma :
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 5 years, 206 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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