Full suspension E-Bike for touring?

Qucartwd · L Plate Warrior Joined: 17 Dec 2018 Karma :

Hi,
This is a discussion, for the optimum electric propulsion for a heavy touring bike, assuming big grade slopes (positive and negative) along the way.
I wish not only to drive on roads (and cars), but also to cross countries by off road trails. (4x4 gravel roads at worst - not single tracks, drops, jumps...)
I did such a touring across Estonia by using Google Earth to locate forest roads. It was amazing. I didn't have a motor (it was just flat anyway), but some forest roads were quite bumpy to my back, hands, and to the equipment I was carrying. (I used a rigid touring bike)

First, I wonder if there exist a full suspension bicycles for touring:
Probably with shorter suspensions, but with geometry that allows standard front&rear racks to be used, so they located in the SPRUNG zone of the bike https://mechanicfaq.com/shocks-for-harley-touring/?
There are solutions to regular full suspension bikes, but those racks are attached to the unsprung parts - for example on the fork beneath the shock absorber.
I would also like to use 700c tires, and not small 20inch or so.
I was considering, however, the option of taking my full-suspension E-Bike that has two motors, and attach a trailer behind it for the equipment. This adds a significant drag, and it would be impossible to use it outside of well paved asphalt roads.

Now about electricity:
I see two optimum options:

1. Front DD motor and rear geared motor: The front works alone during flats where it's more efficient and low power is needed, and also regen during downhills. The geared joins at takeoffs (to pass as fast as possible the low efficient speed zones), and works continuously with the DD during uphills.
I have such configuration, and compared to just a single front DD - I save 40% of the energy during uphills.
The location is also optimum for each motor - More weight and traction is needed on the rear wheel during ascents, and more weight and traction is needed on the front during descents.
The downside is that only one motor is working during regen (and it's significant with touring weight), and the geared-motor wouldn't live long with the added equipment weight above while off-roading.

2. Two identical DD motors - For example two H3540's, which exists both as front and both as rear. This increases regen recovery compared to a single H3540 but it's less than two-fold power increase like on forward propulsion - in the order of 20-30% increase from the regen of a single DD. It does however let you regen more slowly, and powerfully, especially if you go down very steep roads with sharp turns - and add some rain to make the scene more interesting. As you slow down on a 2x2, you are much more weather resistant against slippery. It simplifies the use of a single throttle and CA, but still requires two controllers. (Phaserunners).
The downside is the much higher weight (15Kg for 2xH3540, compared with 10.5Kg for H3540+Ezee250), and a double cogging torque in case you have to pedal alone if there is a flat battery or other malfunction.

What is your opinion?

Ste · Not Work Safe Joined: 01 Sep 2002 Karma :

Sounds like you're looking for www.bicyclechatforums.com Wink

Riejufixing · World Chat Champion Joined: 24 Jun 2018 Karma :

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/ ?

Evil Hans · World Chat Champion Joined: 08 Nov 2015 Karma :

G · The Voice of Reason Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/ is where you want to be.

But, seeing that wit the right system you can have more power than a lot of small motorcycles...

I'd go for a mid drive personally - that way the wheels stay light, so you can take the luggage off and have some fun.
However, plenty do fine with direct drive and the big names like Stealth use them of course.

I have panniers that connect to the wheels on a full suspension bike - though they aren't setup to work with an electric motor as it works with QR spindle wheels.

Look for 29" bikes - they can take 700c tyres. However, you'll be losing out on grip if you go for road biased wheels.
You could also consider a 'pusher trailer'. I've got a mountain bike trailer that can take 200kg or so and be pulled by a normal push bike or my direct drive hard tail bike.
I've since added 2x1kw or so low geared geared hub motors with wide 20" unicycle rims show with 16" (they are measured differently) motocross tyres for loads of grip.
It can be used as a 'pusher trailer', or just to help move the load.
However, it was made for taking big loads short distance, not small loads big distances.

Teflon-Mike · tl;dr Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :

G · The Voice of Reason Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :

BusterGonads · Trackday Trickster Joined: 18 May 2018 Karma :

The 12 miles an hour maximum electric bike speed allowed by law here is a joke. It should be ignored as should all stupid, interfering crap foisted on us by meddling arseholes in those comedy circuses at Westminster and Brussels. I'm 68 and regularly ride my forty year old circa 40 pound, iron Raleigh Superbe a lot faster than that. Why should an electrically assisted bicycle be regulated to a lower speed than an old git can pedal a bicycle.

It's the usual problem that politicians foist on us. They think that everyone should be controlled to a miserable kind of slavery to the whims of people who think they know better than us by virtue of the fact that they studied PPE at university. This course is about as worthless as you can get. It is all about learning to argue black is white. Politicians? Worthless interfering fools.

barrkel · World Chat Champion Joined: 30 Jul 2012 Karma :

Baffler186 · World Chat Champion Joined: 31 May 2013 Karma :

Ste · Not Work Safe Joined: 01 Sep 2002 Karma :

1000w bike laws?

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/new-e-bike-category-ups-power-1000-watts-396471
https://www.mcia.co.uk/page/press-release-16

"When intended for road use, an electric bicycle or speed pedelec over 250W and not over 4kW is classified as a moped (L1e-A or L1e-B). Speed pedelecs fall into the L1e-B category. That means any such vehicles must meet all the requirements that a moped and moped rider need to comply with:
Be 16 years of age or over
Have a moped entitlement on car license or a valid CBT
Wear a helmet
Fix ''L' plates if appropriate
The rider needs insurance, road tax and an MOT"

G · The Voice of Reason Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :

It's L1e-A specifically that covers that.
It was new to me recently - I questioned an advert on facebook, which are normally from foreign companies selling the UK, but they said they'd had someone get it sorted to be legal in the UK. Turns out there have been recent changes.

https://www.cyclinguk.org/cyclists-library/regulations/eapc-regulations

Sister Sledge · World Chat Champion Joined: 17 Aug 2018 Karma :

I'll chuck a spanner into the debate:

You have an ebike of 250 watts. To help with battery conservation you tow a trailer with a generator set on it. That set recharges the batteries but doesn't provide enough power to operate the ebike electric motor.

Is that legal??
(probably not - it's the UK)
____________________
CCM 404 DS

G · The Voice of Reason Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :

That has been questioned and the answer is 'inconclusive' in the UK I believe.
Another option would be to have the generator on your back. I've got a GX25 I'm planning to make into a generator I expect to get around 250W out of, but that's for a completely different purpose.

Mounted on the bike it's self, probably not legal.
Of course, if using for touring and it was quiet (the one I'm making will hopefully be VERY quiet), you could leave it to charge the batteries over night and when stopped.
I would guess that if the generator couldn't run when the bike was being used, they'd have a hard time classing it as a motorvehicle.