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Younha
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bladerunner
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chrisjose1913
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| bikenut |
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bikenut
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 Posted: 11:07 - 05 Jan 2019  Post subject: oil |
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How long would you last with no blood, oil is an engines blood.
Cam problems, cylinder problems, crank problems.
You have a reasonably good tool kit, have a manual and know of cmsnl for the exploded views.
You do not say what year your bike is......
cmsnl shows roller type rocker arms and ball race bearing cam bearings, so there is some hope in that respect.
Check valve working clearances then do a compression check and go from there, but ADD oil to the engine sump!!!!!!!!!!!
White smoke, especially this time of year is water vapour/steam.
Every gallon of hydrocarbon fuel ( petrol in this case ) produces a gallon of water, the vast majority of which comes out the exhaust, sometimes as actual water ( dont go drinking it ) but mostly as steam on a cold day, until the exhaust and gasses "warm up".
Oil smoke is blue for a bit, like a 2 stroke, but grey to white for lots of oil being burnt. If its that bad the plug tends to "oil up" and the engine stops.
So, research, look at cmsnl for whats inside the engine ( centrifugal oil filter also fitted ) , check and adjust if ok valve working clearances and do a compression check.
WHY did it loose all its oil?? and when was the last time you check the oil level, if ever?????
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| Robby |
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Robby
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Posted: 12:44 - 05 Jan 2019  Post subject: |
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I have now come across 3 CBF125s with fucked engines due to no oil. I assume they have trouble with leaking it or burning it, along with the usual problem of young/new riders not checking the oil level.
The solution is a new engine. A used engine should be under £300 on ebay, often with a short warranty, so you have some comfort that the engine isn't fucked on arrival. You could rebuild it, but parts alone would cost as much as a new engine and labour costs would easily double the price.
The good news, if you're already thinking of a new engine, is that you can ride the existing one until it fails. So put some oil in it and ride it. Either its fucked, in which cases the noises will get louder over the next 100 miles and it will run worse and worse until it stops, or it's fine. If it lasts 100 miles without getting worse, drop the oil and check the oil strainer for bits of metal. Oil strainer is under the right hand side crankcase cover.
There is no quick and cheap fix you can do now. Either serious damage has been done, or it hasn't. |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 14:10 - 05 Jan 2019 Post subject: Re: Riding with damaged engine |
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| Tkh wrote: | I assume I will need a new engine |
Assumption is the mother of all effups.
Right here, right now you don't know very much at all... so dont guess.
| Tkh wrote: | is there any cheaper solution to go about this ie getting a piston, barrel etc |
Before looking for a solution, you need to know the problem.....
If the engine is completely balked... yes you'd need a new one. A new engine, from Honda, is probably as expensive as a new bike... so we start to weigh up the options of what's 'cheaper', and in that what's 'best' value for money.
Another engine, need not be brand new; a 'take-out' from another probably crashed second-hand bike, might be procured from a breakers.. but, how thrashed and trashed was that bike, before it got broken?
However; On most bikes the engine is bolted to the frame with just four or five big bolts; there's a few electrical connectors to unplug, the exhaust to take off, and the air-box/carburettor/EFi and control cables to untangle.... it's not an 'enormouse' job, to take an engine out, and put in another... a-n-d that work would probably have to be done to take out, fix and replace the original engine, anyway.
So now the question is whether it's cheaper/easier to take your engine out, and start fiddling, or just wop in a take-out, and if you got a take-out, would that be any better than what you got?
If your motor broke... taking it out, stripping it down, assessing any damage, and reconditioning it, with new parts, possibly a rebore and or replacement cylinder and piston, what you aught to end up with 'should' be almost as good as new, and a lot better, and have a lot more life in it, than something of unknown oragin and history you got at a scrap-yard. But, its likely NOT any cheaper, 'all in' especially if you are paying a mechanic to twiddle the spanners for you.
As an idea; & there's a how-2 linked in profile, I can take a Honda CB125 Super-Dream engine out of the frame; do a top end rebuild, and have it back in the frame, in a week-end. Actual hands-on spanner time, probably in the order of 20 hours, and that's with practice and all the tools I know I'll need, available and readily to hand. If I paid a mechanic to do it for me... well, local non-franchise back-street chap, charges about £30 an hour... so that would be aprox a £600 job....
And that's just the labour, remember. Price of anything in there that's broke and needed replacing would have to be added on top; so maybe £100 more if the cylinders wrecked and it needs a rebore or new barel kit; if the cam's eaten itself? Probably £30 for the cam, possibly with bearings, but good chance it will have taken out the tappets with it, possibly the rockers, and so it starts to add up. If the crank has gone? its a full rebuild to get that out, and more money still to get a new one and or get the old one reconditioned, pressed apart and new bearings fitted.
All in, this could easily be a £1000+ job... if you DIY, you save that £600 or so labour charge, IF you can do the job, and have the skills and tools to do it...... But remember, what you aught to end up with is a reconditioned, good as new engine, likely better than you had to start with.
At that sort of money, it does make the take-out option start to look atractive. You might get a take-out engine for, around £400ish... and it aught to work, so no more parts and minimal spanner twiddling required..... b-u-t... its a second hand engine, and you have little or no assurance that its in any better state than what you got, and it too could go pop next week... and you still need to take out the old one, and fit the new, which, is likely a days spanner work, that if you paid a pro for, would set you back £250+.
But, DIY it's do-able, and cash-savings mean you might salvage pretty terminally blidgered bike for less than it would cost to get another.... and it might, with a little care, like checking the oil level periodically, not go pop too soon.....
NOW.... that's worst case scenario....
| Tkh wrote: | anyone knows the consequences of riding on a damaged engine for a prolonged time. |
That was the starting question, and the answer is the same as how long is a piece of string! Without having a look, and probably at the oily bits inside... we cannot say!
There's more to it than that though, you say you rode it for about 10 minutes, low on oil, but dont say that it actually siezed on you... and only when you were worried, did you notice anything else, like the tiocking noise and white exhaust smoke....
Back-To-Top... assumption is the mother of all eff-ups!!!
Fact that it ran, says it wasn't terminally damaged before you rode it. It was running.
The ticking noise and white smoke, only noticed becaused you had a pang and decided to take the thing to a mechanic, DONT actually tell us much. These symptoms could, and indeeed, were likely there before you thought to look for a problem..... and they could be anything, related or not, to the engine being run low on oil.
Trying to allay some panic mechanics a little.. you mention an oil leak.... that's not good.... but....
Are you sure that the white smoke was coming from inside the engine?
White exhaust smoke, is usually steam, made from boiling water, normally sucked in from the cooling system... on a water-cooled engine..... The CBF AFAIK is air-cooled.. sort of suggests you DIDN'T see 'white' smoke..... burning oil is more blue-ish.... where could the oil have come from to be burned?
Top of the list, number one most obviouse, is that it was spilled on the echaust when the engine oil was topped up... hmmm....
Little CBT query, you are taught to check the oil, and oft asked whether you check the level with the filler cap screwed all the way in, or just rested on the top of the threads... with around 10mm of threads the difference in readings can be the difference between min and max on the dip-stick... and the CBT answer is RTFM... (or check your bludy book)!
Next, if the engine oil is over filled, oil will be vented or blow out of the sump by crank-case pressure. That oil should, on a fairly recent bike like the CBF be vented from the crank-case through a breather pipe, that ends in the air-box, so the oil gets sucked, slowly, into the engine to get burned... and you'll get a bit of blue/grey tinge to your exhaust smoke... and probably a sootly plug, but no major harm done.
There's two possible explanations of your observed symptom....
If the oil breather pipe, is old and perished, damaged or split, then excess oil could be vented, nut not to the air-box, and 'leak'.. could explain any puddles you may have spotted on the floor... but also, likely to drip onto the outside of the exhaust.. to burn off when exhaust hot, and very easily 'look' like its coming out the exxhaust pipe from the engine, much like fill-spill.
There's another.
Worth mentioning here, is that oil-loss on a bike engine can happen from two main causes.
First is that the engine's burning its own oil, which means its getting past the piston rings, indicating a bore worn beyond limits, or its getting sucked down the valve guides, indicating again, worn valve-guides, or worn/perished stem seals. Usually indicated by high oil consumption, and blue-tunged exhaust smoke, and a pretty chitty spark-plug, this does tend to suggest that the engine needs full and proper tear-down and reconditioning.
Next, is a blown gasket or seal. There's only two main seals on a motorcycle crank-case; there's one on the crank-shaft between the cranbk-case and the generator. If it goes, you tend to get the generator fill with oil, and a drip from its vent or an old gasket.
Other is the sprocket shaft seal... which is much more common, and especially common on Learner-Legals. Usually caused by over-tightening the drive chain, the side-load on the sprocket shaft sees the bearing and seal prematurely wear out, and oil from the gearbox leaks pas onto the chain and sproket, where you expect there to be oil, so oft goes unnoticed, unless its leaking a lot, and or dripping on the exhaust.
Other possibilities are any of the engine gaskets, holding oil. The primary drive case has one, the two crank case halves have another, and if either has gone, oil will tend to drip beneath the bike. Cylinder has a gasket beneath it, but of that has gone, oil will tend to seep out onto the top of the engine, and 'may' drip onto the exhaust. Yo have another large rubber seal under the rocker cover, that can weep oil, and is prone to, especially if oft removed and clumsily refitted by DIY mechanics checking tappets as they should.
SO, the source of your oil, loss, IF there really is any, needs to be found... which means cleaning and observing, and leaving the bike parked on clean dry news-paper can help you see where oil might be dripping from, if not immediately obvious, on clean/inspect.
Ticking!!!!
Well, engines tick when they cool down. Could be quite normal. Drive chains, especially when mal-adjusted, can 'click' when the wheels turn. See above comments on sprocket shaft oil seal!) More usual cause of ticking is the tappets not being properly adjusted.... and this lies high on the list of likely suspects, given that they are inside oily bits of engine, often scaring owners who baulk at the recommended adjustment interval or aprox every 2ooo miles, cos means looking at scary bits, where oil lives, inside the engine.
Could also be a loose or blowing exhaust or gasket.... or many many other things.....
BUT the here and now is, that from your description, its a bit of string. We REALLY cant say whether the engine even IS damaged, let alone what that damage might be, or how bad or the cheapest way to fix it!
The start point for diagnostics is to eliminate the obvious and easy first. DO A SERVICE!!! Change the spark-plug, change the oil... pay attention to the levels and which way to read the dip-stick; Adjust the tappet clearances, and look all around the engine for anything obvious, LIKE a blowing exhaust, or a breather pipe, particularly crank-case vent pipe to the air-box, that's perished, cracked or just fallen off!
YOU MAY BE LUCKY!
And your symptoms go away, and the bike runs fine for another few ooo miles, with care and attension and an eye on the service scedule.
You may not......
But, with variables eliminated you at least have a place to start looking, for what might be a 'problem'....
And remember; Assumption is the mother of all effups!!!! When fault finding DONT guess or assume, CHECK, and eliminate variables.
Yes, the motor could be damaged from being run low on oil. On ten-mile run, however, with it running at both ends, its incredibly unlikely THAT has done any damage, that wasn't already there.... as said, engine could be well worn and in need of recon to start with, and you are only 'just' picking up on the symptoms... as likely, is that its fine, and the 'leak' you are worried about is just the engine having been over-filled with oil... and or and probably a bit of all, wear and tear and more than a little numpty mechanics and lack of mechanics along the way....
Question is, how bad is it, here and now, and the fact that you suggest its ride-able... does suggest its not 'quite' terminal, and in immediate need of a full tear-down or engine swap...
So start the fault finding.... slowly, and diligently, with a basic and thorough clean,... and that mean in all the nooks and crannies like the sprocket cover, not just the shiney painted and plastic bits like the petrol tank and side panels.... and do a full, and propper service, and not just to the engine, if you are wise, but, work down the list in the haynes manwell, and make sure its ALL done, 'cos good chance it never has been and or large chunks have been skipped along the way.. but get a good known base line for starting your fault finding... if there is, after that, one to find.
DON'T do panic-mechanics, assuming anything, let alone worst case need a new engine scenarios..... you may... but its all assumption, you don't KNOW till its been properly and thoroughly checked.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Younha
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| Pete. |
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Pete.
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| Posted: 18:15 - 05 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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Get a new engine ASAP. That one's had it.
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a.k.a 'Geri'
132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good  |
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mentalboy
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stevo as b4
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| Riejufixing |
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Riejufixing
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| Posted: 18:56 - 05 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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It should be taken apart, cleaned and blown out very thoroughly, and put back together with whatever's needed, guess chankshaft + mains, piston/rings/barrel.
That's a bit of a job considering your apparent lack of experience, so as others have said, get a used engine, of appropriate age as complete as possible to reduce mechanic's paid time (1 currently possible: eBay item number: 263962655480 at £395 "buy it now"), and get it put in (ask "your mechanic" whether he's prepared to do that before you buy an engine).
If you can keep the old motor you may be able to recover some of your costs by selling bits off it. |
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| Grubscrew |
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Grubscrew
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| bikenut |
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bikenut
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| Posted: 12:45 - 08 Jan 2019 Post subject: smoke |
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I really did laugh out loud, sorry dude but bloody hell, when did you check the oil last, if ever.
I have stupidly been riding roughy 10minutes without oil and it did seized on me on the way to the mechanics to get my oil leak checked.
So you knew it was leaking oil ( from where ) ffs, and was without oil!!!!!
Research cmsnl for the exploded views and prices.
A new honda engine is gunna be mega mega mega bucks, and so are parts, the cost will spiral.
Its worth your while after doing your research ( the exploded views on cmsnl will only help you, you can see how stuff fits etc., etc., etc., ) and looking at your manual, to strip this engine down, head and barrel off at least.
Post some pics of the flywheel, that may need a spacial tool to remove, if the crank is buggered.
Find your bike on cmsnl, you know exactly what it is ( fucked ) and post a link.
The good news, if you're already thinking of a new engine, is that you can ride the existing one until it fails. So put some oil in it and ride it.
DO NOT DO THIS, YOU WILL PROBABLY DIE, and the smoke screen behind you will cause an accident due to your stupidity!!!!!
I am going to assume its the last one listed on cmsnl.............CBF125M 2011 B England
Are you by chance female ?? as they are not afraid to ask stuff.
If you are capable of riding this bike then you are capable of fixing it, you have basic tools right?
The only real problem would/may be removing the flywheel, if you need to split the crankcase for a new crank for example.
You will not loose anything ( in fact you will gain much respect if you work on this engine, even if its totally fucked and now scrap, or beyond economic repair ) by stripping this engine down your self.
You will learn.
If you get an e bay special make sure it has a written guarantee, you may be stripping that one down soon.
____________________
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Last edited by bikenut on 13:15 - 08 Jan 2019; edited 1 time in total |
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| Pete. |
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Pete.
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| Posted: 13:06 - 08 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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You won't be able to rebuild that engine for anything like the cost of a used lump. Just find one from a smashed bike, there's got to be enough of them out there.
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132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good |
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mentalboy
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