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New thoughts on tax avoidance and low tax

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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 09:59 - 20 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Confusing?

Suppose it's easy to confuse a thickie. Laughing
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 16:56 - 22 Feb 2019    Post subject: Re: New thoughts on tax avoidance and low tax Reply with quote

Robby wrote:
Companies will avoid paying taxes where possible. Big companies have more money to spend on ways of avoiding tax.
So in your scenario, where it looks like we're replacing Starbucks with a hypothetical British equivalent, the new company will do just the same thing. You give it that kind of money and market share, and it will find new ways to avoid paying tax.

The reason they get away with it is because they're doing nothing illegal, although it is unethical. You're also wrong in your initial premise that they do nothing important. Whilst they don't provide any kind of critical service, people like starbucks coffee. One important factor for a lot of people when choosing a job is the distance to the nearest coffee shop of their choice.

They also employ an awful lot of people, and are largely responsible for making "barista" a profession, which means people who make coffee can get paid more than 20 years ago. Higher pay means higher income tax.

All in all, they get away with, as do the other big tax avoiders, because the overall cost and impact of changing the system isn't worth it.

As for other countries, it is worth mentioning that the big coffee chain in Canada is Tim Horton's, a Canadian company. A big part of the reason they're big is that Canadians like to buy local. A big part of the reason that Starbucks is so popular here is that British people like to buy popular brands. Changing that culture wouldn't be easy, but you would need to start with having some British brands worth buying.


Right, but you missed my primary point, which is that a 'home grown' company would record and distribute far more of its profits in the UK, rather than sending it back to shareholders or tax bases registered with other governments.

As for Starbucks being a 'popular' brand, I don't agree with that. Starbucks isn't popular, it's just large enough and wealthy enough to buy stores in prime locations, so of course people are going to go there. If Starbucks disappeared tomorrow, people would not stop going to overpriced chain cafes.
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 17:55 - 22 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone remember the whole Starbucks/Louise Mensch fallacy thing?
Basically she pointed out that the St. Paul's anti-Capitalist were queuing up for one, thereby propping up a corporate giant.

I sort of see her point but it proved unpopular for some reason?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 23:59 - 22 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Her mistake was the common assumption that protesters of that kind are against capitalism altogether.

As Ian Hislop said at the time, it's possible to want a reshaping of the economic system with demanding a return to the stone age.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with Starbucks, and it has every right to continue operating within the rule of law. The protest at that time wasn't against the idea of corporations, it was against the legal and political framework that allows them to operate in the ways that they do/did.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 19:52 - 23 Feb 2019    Post subject: Re: New thoughts on tax avoidance and low tax Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:

Right, but you missed my primary point, which is that a 'home grown' company would record and distribute far more of its profits in the UK, rather than sending it back to shareholders or tax bases registered with other governments.

As for Starbucks being a 'popular' brand, I don't agree with that. Starbucks isn't popular, it's just large enough and wealthy enough to buy stores in prime locations, so of course people are going to go there. If Starbucks disappeared tomorrow, people would not stop going to overpriced chain cafes.


I think you missed my point, which is that if you give a company that sort of market share, they are going get registered wherever is most tax efficient. Country of origin doesn't matter, they will shift as much activity as possible into low tax countries.

Starbucks is popular. People do prefer it. You hear people saying "I'm getting a Starbucks", not "I'm getting a Costa Coffee". You don't have to like it - I can't stand the place, their tea tastes like piss - but it is a hugely popular and successful chain. If it disappeared, of course people would go elsewhere, but when offered a choice, a lot of people choose Starbucks.

To get to your ideal of people buying coffee shops from companies that pay their taxes and return more to the country, you need a lot of independent shops and smaller chains where it doesn't make sense to register offshore or have a complicated tax model. The problem there is people. People like popular brands.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 08:02 - 24 Feb 2019    Post subject: Re: New thoughts on tax avoidance and low tax Reply with quote

Robby wrote:

To get to your ideal of people buying coffee shops from companies that pay their taxes and return more to the country, you need a lot of independent shops and smaller chains where it doesn't make sense to register offshore or have a complicated tax model. The problem there is people. People like popular brands.


I think this brings it back round to a point I've made on here before, about anti-monopoly laws (or the lack of them).

Here in China, large chains are forced to close all the time, to protect smaller local shops. The chains are still large and dominant, but small businesses are protected.

Might be a bit beside the point when it comes to tax evasion, though I wonder if people would have less of an immediate "I'm going to Starbucks" mindset if smaller businesses were given more chance to thrive and compete.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 12:39 - 24 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monopolies give the government power over taxation IMO, if the UK government turned round to Amazon or Starbucks and said...

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SDoMzfE5L-g/UZ5Mg9VehbI/AAAAAAAAWAc/AkJO0YcpgNM/s1600/oi+no.jpg

Would they really pull out of the UK after all they've invested? If they had two crummy coffee shops they might.

I suspect the real reason it goes on is due to deals done at lunches...
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jimbojumps This post is not being displayed because it has a low rating (Spam). Unhide this post / all posts.

Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 21:11 - 25 Feb 2019    Post subject: Re: New thoughts on tax avoidance and low tax Reply with quote

jimbojumps wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
It occurred to me today that certain tax evading companies across the world are nothing but a burden and a drain on their host countries.


I don't understand why such unimportant enterprises are given such an easy deal, allowed to engage in aggressive tax avoidance and siphoning as much as possible out of their host economy.


Interesting the opening post uses "evading" and quickly switches to "avoidance". The former is illegal the latter is legal.

Or are you bothered about both?


Mealey mouthed bullshit speak. Two sides of the same coin.

Time the tax handbook was scrapped and started again, the simpler the better.
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 14:55 - 26 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

fcuk me we're getting a lot of socks on the forum lately.
Is its something to do with Brexit?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 15:05 - 27 Feb 2019    Post subject: Re: New thoughts on tax avoidance and low tax Reply with quote

jimbojumps wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
It occurred to me today that certain tax evading companies across the world are nothing but a burden and a drain on their host countries.


I don't understand why such unimportant enterprises are given such an easy deal, allowed to engage in aggressive tax avoidance and siphoning as much as possible out of their host economy.


Interesting the opening post uses "evading" and quickly switches to "avoidance". The former is illegal the latter is legal.

Or are you bothered about both?


It was a lapse in thinking and a resultant typo. Pretty obvious what the premise of the thread was about anyway. And yes it would make sense to be bothered by tax avaoidance and evasion, both of which have a fair amount of overlap at times, I suspect.
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 15:11 - 27 Feb 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't fear the sock.

Maybe referring to https://sockweb-digital-marketing.co.uk would help
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