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16" Front Wheel on a CBR600RR

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PyroVee
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PostPosted: 22:49 - 15 Mar 2019    Post subject: 16" Front Wheel on a CBR600RR Reply with quote

I am looking to swap my front wheel from my 2005 cbr600rr from a 17" to a 16" x 3.50. I have been looking at a CB600 hornet front wheel or maybe a CBR900rr. Would either of these be a straight swap? If not are there any wheels out there that can be swapped with little to no modification?

Thanks!
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 22:52 - 15 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why?
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Paddy.
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PostPosted: 23:18 - 15 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's one way to guarantee a shit handling bike.

Don't.
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PyroVee
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PostPosted: 23:58 - 15 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is for a rebuild and customisation project on an already totalled bike, hence why I am looking. So need to know what 16" will fit.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 08:45 - 16 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're customising, you can stick a 17" on.
Unless you want a shit handling bike with really limited tyre selection, don't put a 16" on. There's a reason early 90's bikes stopped using them, and the ones that did use them commonly have conversions to 17".
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 10:25 - 16 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

How to ruin a sublime bike in one easy lesson:

1.) Buy a CBR600RR. Remove the front wheel. Replace with a 16" front wheel.

Why would you want a 16" over a 17"? You haven't answered our question really. You say it's a totalled bike but you haven't said why specifically you want the 16".

You know that a 16" wheel with a tyre still has the same rolling radius as a 17", right? You have more sidewall so you get more tyre flex and therefore mid corner you get a very vague feeling.
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kramdra
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PostPosted: 12:08 - 16 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Motogp still use 16" fronts.

What is the purpose?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 12:32 - 16 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

kramdra wrote:
Motogp still use 16" fronts.

What is the purpose?


You get quicker turning compared to a 17 inch tyre with a similar profile but at the expense of it being more twitchy.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 12:37 - 16 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

kramdra wrote:
Motogp still use 16" fronts.

What is the purpose?


They use 16.5" and they use race tyres which have a lower profile than a 16" road tyre from a 1990s Fireblade or something. I'm fairly sure they don't make road tyres in that size.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 12:50 - 16 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'll struggle to find an easy answer, because no-one does this.

So turn the question around. See if there are any reports of using the CBR600RR 17" front in something that usually has a 16" front - early hornets and fireblades mostly.

If the CBR6 wheel fits into those with little trouble, you can expect the 16" front to fit your bike with little trouble.

I expect you're going to have a bit of fun fitting it anyway. Expect to make up spacers to get the wheel central, and to mess around making adaptor plates to fit the brake calipers.

No-one does this because its a bad idea. The CBR600RR is already twitchy enough. Going to a 16" front just makes it more likely to end up throwing you off, and limits your choice of decent tyres.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 13:13 - 16 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robby wrote:


I expect you're going to have a bit of fun fitting it anyway. Expect to make up spacers to get the wheel central, and to mess around making adaptor plates to fit the brake calipers.


I don't think that will work anyway because the disks on the older 16" wheel bikes are smaller. When you fit a bigger disk you can space out the calipers to be further away from the mounts. When you fit a smaller disc...? That's a whole nother deal.With conventional forks you might be able to move them down a bit on the mounts, and turn them around the spindle to stay at the right radius, but it'll be a massive ball ache.

All that said, I think the 2005 600RR has radial calipers anyway... so that'll be a no then.
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Sister Sledge
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PostPosted: 13:14 - 16 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll try simplifying it for op: Imagine replacing your front wheel with a furniture caster wheel..
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 17:58 - 16 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 919RR uses 16 inch front wheel, the only difference to a ''standard'' 17 inch wheel, that I can tell is limited selection of 16 inch front tyres.

I remember people talking about going from 16 inch to 17 inch wheel, only because it's easier to get a good deal on the 17 inch tyres.

Also, as said by others, you're gonna have to run smaller brake discs. Normally you would run anything between 300 and 320mm front disc on a 17 inch wheel. A 16 inch wheel would run something like 280mm discs which means, you're gonna have to fabricate some brackets to fit the calipers. That being said, if you really want to switch to 16 inch wheel, get a complete front end from a bike, that runs 16 inch wheel. It'll be less hassle replacing the front end, rather than just the wheel and then figuring out how to adapt the front brake caliper brackets.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 13:26 - 17 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 16" wheel debate is an old one. OTMH it was Bimota, who pioneered the idea, in the late 70's, early 80's, with 16" ers both ends.

At the time, motorbike tyres were universally cross-ply, and likely tubed, and usually in larger rim sizes, with 19" fronts and 18" rears common. Conventional wisdom, also advocated low centers of gravity, the BMW boxers aplauded for it, and long wheel-bases for 'stability', whilst 'slow-steering' was oft critasised, and blamed on large front wheels rather than large amounts of fork rake.

Vogue of the 16" front in the early 80's then was peculiarly vaunted as to quicken up steering, the smaller wheel having less gyroscopic effect.... BUT, after half a decade of back-pedaling on the advert-science of 16"ers, going back to 17" or 18" rims, the oiriginal '93 Fire-Blade, got rather unfashionable right-way-up forks and a 16" front wheel, and a specially developed tyre, ISTR from Bridghestone for it.

Curiousely the 16" front combo on the launch year Fire-Place has exactly the same rolling diameter as the earlier VF1000's 16incher suggested to make its handling rather 'twitchy'; but also the same rolling diameter as the 17" wheels and low-profile tyres used on things like GSXR's or FZR!

A-N-D the debate still rages.... and so much of the ad-science is still being regurgitated.

To regurgitate a bit more; Interestingly; when Honda launched the fire-place, they defended the use of the then retrograde 16" front wheel, with some quite pertinent propper science. It was a big leap, and one where they did have to get Bridgestone to developp a brand new tyres just for that bike. Basically their argument was that with the advent of radial tyres, the limits of making a tyre almost as tall in the side-wall as it was accross the tread, were peculiarly removed, and you could make a tyre almost any width and any diameter you liked... and using ever lower-profile tyres then, they reckoned was not 'such' a wonderful thing.

With less tyre side-wall taking out 'small' road-irregularities almost at source, it meant that the suspension system had more work to do, so a more conventional higher side-wall tyre COULD actually save having such a sensitive set of forks... so they could be better.... or lighter..... or cheaper....

The gyroscopic effect of the wheel, was also not so much dependent on the overall rolling diameter, but on the moment of intertia of the rotating assembly... ie how heavy the whole wheel was.

So a smaller wheel, with less heavy metal in it, and a bigger, lighter rubber tyre making up the same roling diameter should have less gyroscopic inertia, and change direction more easily... should also, being lighter, give less un-sprug mass, and again, give the suspension less work to do, so that could be more better/lighter/cheaper still.

In which there is more than a little sense... BUT, point is that the nominal rim diameter is but ONE specification, and one very small part of the over-all handling equation.

And I'm sure the debate over the rim diameter will contuinue....

However... shelving all that 'lore' and possible repitition distortion.... old rule of racing... "Before looking for more than standard, make sure you have all yuou should AS standard'

Honda has spenmt gazzillions on developing front ends for different bikes; they have the Yen, they have the man-power and they have the super-computers to do it.... true, big chunk of thier interest is in more 'cheaper' than more liughter or more better... but still... they chuck a heck of a lot of engineering hours and money at the job, and probably get it pretty close to 'right'... certainly they have a far better chance to get it closer to right than some oik in a shed with a halfrauds socket set....


So what are you looking to achieve?

PyroVee wrote:
Is for a rebuild and customisation project on an already totalled bike, hence why I am looking. So need to know what 16" will fit.


Again, echoing Marjay, WHY? Are you looking for something better, or cheaper, or simply easier? And what 'better' are you hoping for? Better looks, better tyre choice, easier brake pad removal? What?

Back to the Hamatsu Hammerers... Before moving away from standard... make sure you have all you should as standard... and that brochure spec standard does have a LOT in its favour.... not least its exactly like wots in the Haynes, and when you turn up to order a set of brake pads you dont have to answer so many silly questions... or swar at them when they dont fit....

Baby's and bathwaters are the imediete idea here.

Personally I would be very very sanguine over a 16" wheel conversion, especially from 17 to 16, not the other ways about, A-N-D I would want to be very clear on my thinking before I started.... a-n-d... given that there are so many variables in the equation over and above the 'simple' rim size...

PyroVee wrote:
Would either of these be a straight swap? If not are there any wheels out there that can be swapped with little to no modification?


SORT of suggests that in the ponderations, easy and cheap, is somewhat more of an imperative than what it looks like or how it performs or how dificult it is to service of get tyres or brake pads for.....

Short answer IS, Keep-It-Simple & Standard!

Looks likie the book says it should, Bits the book say should fit, do, and how book says they sghould, its not got any idiocyncracies A-N-D ultimately, longer term, making iut like the lab-rats designed it, it will likley be the cheapest, best looking, most easy to live with and best performing set-up you can get....

DONT chuck the baby out with the bath-water, and if you have to ask what will fit, you probably dont know ebough to fit something different, and actually see any benefit from it.

So back to the question WHY?
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 18:05 - 17 Mar 2019    Post subject: Re: 16" Front Wheel on a CBR600RR Reply with quote

PyroVee wrote:
I am looking to swap my front wheel from my 2005 cbr600rr from a 17" to a 16" x 3.50. I have been looking at a CB600 hornet front wheel or maybe a CBR900rr. Would either of these be a straight swap? If not are there any wheels out there that can be swapped with little to no modification?

Thanks!


not that I'm expecting a response, but why? You'll limit tyre choice, and the rolling diameter will be the same. There's a reason why Honda didn't carry on doing it and no other manufacturers jumped on the band wagon. It didn't really work. They only fitting them to the Hornets as they had loads left over from the early Fireblade and had to do something with them.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 20:52 - 17 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
The 16" wheel debate is an old one. OTMH it was Bimota, who pioneered the idea, in the late 70's, early 80's, with 16" ers both ends.

At the time, motorbike tyres were universally cross-ply, and likely tubed, and usually in larger rim sizes, with 19" fronts and 18" rears common. Conventional wisdom, also advocated low centers of gravity, the BMW boxers aplauded for it, and long wheel-bases for 'stability', whilst 'slow-steering' was oft critasised, and blamed on large front wheels rather than large amounts of fork rake.

Vogue of the 16" front in the early 80's then was peculiarly vaunted as to quicken up steering, the smaller wheel having less gyroscopic effect.... BUT, after half a decade of back-pedaling on the advert-science of 16"ers, going back to 17" or 18" rims, the oiriginal '93 Fire-Blade, got rather unfashionable right-way-up forks and a 16" front wheel, and a specially developed tyre, ISTR from Bridghestone for it.

Curiousely the 16" front combo on the launch year Fire-Place has exactly the same rolling diameter as the earlier VF1000's 16incher suggested to make its handling rather 'twitchy'; but also the same rolling diameter as the 17" wheels and low-profile tyres used on things like GSXR's or FZR!

A-N-D the debate still rages.... and so much of the ad-science is still being regurgitated.

To regurgitate a bit more; Interestingly; when Honda launched the fire-place, they defended the use of the then retrograde 16" front wheel, with some quite pertinent propper science. It was a big leap, and one where they did have to get Bridgestone to developp a brand new tyres just for that bike. Basically their argument was that with the advent of radial tyres, the limits of making a tyre almost as tall in the side-wall as it was accross the tread, were peculiarly removed, and you could make a tyre almost any width and any diameter you liked... and using ever lower-profile tyres then, they reckoned was not 'such' a wonderful thing.

With less tyre side-wall taking out 'small' road-irregularities almost at source, it meant that the suspension system had more work to do, so a more conventional higher side-wall tyre COULD actually save having such a sensitive set of forks... so they could be better.... or lighter..... or cheaper....

The gyroscopic effect of the wheel, was also not so much dependent on the overall rolling diameter, but on the moment of intertia of the rotating assembly... ie how heavy the whole wheel was.

So a smaller wheel, with less heavy metal in it, and a bigger, lighter rubber tyre making up the same roling diameter should have less gyroscopic inertia, and change direction more easily... should also, being lighter, give less un-sprug mass, and again, give the suspension less work to do, so that could be more better/lighter/cheaper still.

In which there is more than a little sense... BUT, point is that the nominal rim diameter is but ONE specification, and one very small part of the over-all handling equation.

And I'm sure the debate over the rim diameter will contuinue....

However... shelving all that 'lore' and possible repitition distortion.... old rule of racing... "Before looking for more than standard, make sure you have all yuou should AS standard'

Honda has spenmt gazzillions on developing front ends for different bikes; they have the Yen, they have the man-power and they have the super-computers to do it.... true, big chunk of thier interest is in more 'cheaper' than more liughter or more better... but still... they chuck a heck of a lot of engineering hours and money at the job, and probably get it pretty close to 'right'... certainly they have a far better chance to get it closer to right than some oik in a shed with a halfrauds socket set....


So what are you looking to achieve?

PyroVee wrote:
Is for a rebuild and customisation project on an already totalled bike, hence why I am looking. So need to know what 16" will fit.


Again, echoing Marjay, WHY? Are you looking for something better, or cheaper, or simply easier? And what 'better' are you hoping for? Better looks, better tyre choice, easier brake pad removal? What?

Back to the Hamatsu Hammerers... Before moving away from standard... make sure you have all you should as standard... and that brochure spec standard does have a LOT in its favour.... not least its exactly like wots in the Haynes, and when you turn up to order a set of brake pads you dont have to answer so many silly questions... or swar at them when they dont fit....

Baby's and bathwaters are the imediete idea here.

Personally I would be very very sanguine over a 16" wheel conversion, especially from 17 to 16, not the other ways about, A-N-D I would want to be very clear on my thinking before I started.... a-n-d... given that there are so many variables in the equation over and above the 'simple' rim size...

PyroVee wrote:
Would either of these be a straight swap? If not are there any wheels out there that can be swapped with little to no modification?


SORT of suggests that in the ponderations, easy and cheap, is somewhat more of an imperative than what it looks like or how it performs or how dificult it is to service of get tyres or brake pads for.....

Short answer IS, Keep-It-Simple & Standard!

Looks likie the book says it should, Bits the book say should fit, do, and how book says they sghould, its not got any idiocyncracies A-N-D ultimately, longer term, making iut like the lab-rats designed it, it will likley be the cheapest, best looking, most easy to live with and best performing set-up you can get....

DONT chuck the baby out with the bath-water, and if you have to ask what will fit, you probably dont know ebough to fit something different, and actually see any benefit from it.

So back to the question WHY?


No, sorry, I only got through the first sentence.

Did you say that 16 inch is twitchier than 17 inch or did you come out with some random shit?

If thats the former I did it in a single sentence.

And I just did it again.
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Ste
Not Work Safe



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PostPosted: 22:44 - 17 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wub
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr



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PostPosted: 10:52 - 18 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Did you say that 16 inch is twitchier than 17 inch or did you come out with some random shit.


I didn't, twitchiness of 16" vs 17" is like saying that its the olive in your Martini that makes it bitter, and arguing thats why you should drink cider rather than Lager.....

Rest was less random shit, certainly less random than cider vs lager explained by the olive in a martini, to explain why.....
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