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VFR800 commuter braking dilemma VTR fork swap - Stinkwheel?

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MarJay
But it's British!



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: 11:50 - 19 Mar 2019    Post subject: VFR800 commuter braking dilemma VTR fork swap - Stinkwheel? Reply with quote

Greetings.

As you guys know I have a VFR800 that I bought late last year to use on my commute. It's a great bike. It goes OK, is comfy and has great weather protection. It even goes around corners very nicely, and is stable and confidence inspiring.

However... The brakes. Oh the brakes. How awful are they? Bad. Very bad indeed. It's not so much the linked-ness (although it is annoying if barely noticeable) but more the 2/3piston slideyness and the 19 year old rubber hoses. They work but they are bottom twitchingly inefficient. If I plan ahead a lot they are useable but compared to my other bikes they are weak.

So I read online that you can't do a caliper swap on the standard forks as the mountings are weird. This makes sense, as part of the left hand front caliper mount is actually a master cylinder for the rear brake (! Yeah I know!). So a common mod is to take the fork bottoms from a Firestorm and put them on the VFR stanchions.

Wonderful, I thought. So I bought a set of Firestorm forks and a pair of Firestorm brake calipers with hoses and master cylinder from Fleabay.

Now comes the problem. In reading into it further, it seems that the spacing of the Firestorm forks is different from the VFR items. Also, the Firestorm fork lowers are wider as they have two pinch bolts for the spindle as opposed to one. "Bloke on the internet" reckons that you can just use the VFR spindle and spacers, and wheel and then you have to space out the brake calipers a bit to make them centre on the discs. But then, I'm not 100% sure "Bloke on the internet" is right. As people have said on here before "Bloke on the internet" has supplanted "Bloke down the pub" as the repositry of all dodgy knowledge.

Bloke on the internet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQC5XJlFLDQ&t=8s

Being this is a commuter, if I make an irrevocable change to the bike that doesn't work I'm a bit screwed. I need this bike to work. So my plan was to do the mods over Easter to give me time to make it all work. I'm worried that reverting to the original setup will be a pain due to the quantity and age of the hoses in the braking system right now.

It seems that Stinkwheel has done this mod before, but to a VFR750... in 2010... NOT an RC46 800... So he may have some insight into this.
https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=198412

So, have I made a huge mistake buying Firestorm parts I can't use? Do I press ahead with the mods and hope it all just works? Or do I leave it OEM as I'll have to sell the bike in a year or so anyway when the ULEZ expands? Do I use the slightly shorter (~10mm) Firestorm fork stanchions as then I will have damping adjustment? Will Batman escape the clutches of the Joker? Will that annoying ringing in my ears ever go away?

The answers to these questions, and more, hopefully found in this thread!
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Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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sickpup
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Joined: 21 Apr 2004
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PostPosted: 17:25 - 20 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your bike uses pretty much the same calipers as my nt700 Deauville so if it can stop that fully loaded at over 400KG they should have no problems stopping yours. My bike may not be as fast as yours but it is a lot heavier especially with me on board.

Just sort the calipers, fit genuine pads and it''l be fine.
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B5234FT
Brolly Dolly



Joined: 28 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: 17:32 - 20 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

No idea on the firestorm bits, on my mates VFR800 we replaced the entire front end with VFR1200 parts (wheel, disks, forks, mudguard, calipers, master cyliner and triples) and ported the rear caliper to remove the linking and actuate all pistons
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 21:33 - 20 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't know about the swap onto an 800, I definately had to use the firestorm spindle on mine.

You could get a pair of pretecs... I did and they are awesome, although they would probably cost more than the bike is worth.

I have personally found fitting brembo brake pads makes an enormous difference to mediocre brakes.

Anyway. You have the firestorm forks and callipers in your sweaty little hand?

So. Just test fit them. You don't have to plumb in the firestorm callipers until you're ready to use them, just bolt them on and see how they fit with the wheel and spacers you have. Not a big job and nothing irreversible. Just tie the current calipers back out of the way until you decide.

If they are only slightly out, you can buy bags of shims pretty cheaply to space-out callipers. It's good practice to do this with opposed callipers anyway. My pretecs came with a baggy of assorted shims.

Mmmm. 6-pots.
https://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f216/stinkwheel/VFR/1CIMG1610_zps4f9ecba6.jpg
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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MarJay
But it's British!



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: 09:15 - 21 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
Your bike uses pretty much the same calipers as my nt700 Deauville so if it can stop that fully loaded at over 400KG they should have no problems stopping yours. My bike may not be as fast as yours but it is a lot heavier especially with me on board.

Just sort the calipers, fit genuine pads and it''l be fine.


Yeah this is the way I'm leaning now. I removed and cleaned the calipers, cleaned off a load of crud and made the pistons move nicely. But there is just no power to the brakes. I wonder if the 19 year old rubber hoses have some effect on it.

I think the pads are OEM, and I have a set of EBC's to fit, so I could try that first. I feel a bit of an idiot to be mislead by "Bloke on the internet" (not necessarily that guy specifically). I should have known better.

Pretech etc won't work with my bike as the calipers are asymmetric on the front. This is why I need the fork swap because the left side incorporates a lever which actuates another master cylinder which is connected to the middle piston on the rear brake. Not sure what the Honda braking dude was smoking at this time, but it was strong.

What irks me is that the bike handles really nicely, the engine is smooth and strong and it's all day comfy. The wind protection is excellent and it's built like a tank. It really could be a candidate for the best all round bike I've ever owned. If the criteria was "Bike as only transport" This would be it without a shadow of a doubt. It's just let down by crapola brakes.

Having read the vitriol about brake unlinking on the VFR forums what I'm thinking now is that I don't want to destroy what little value I have in the bike by removing what is considered in the VFR community to be a 'feature'. I am not a fan of the linked brakes, but I don't think they really make that much of a difference (positive or negative) on the road.
____________________
British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 09:19 - 21 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:


So. Just test fit them. You don't have to plumb in the firestorm callipers until you're ready to use them, just bolt them on and see how they fit with the wheel and spacers you have. Not a big job and nothing irreversible. Just tie the current calipers back out of the way until you decide.


I had thought of doing this... I have a few days off before Easter, so that might be my Easter project.

The other thing is, It's not like I don't have another bike I can use if this one is off the road, but I wouldn't want to take the Street Trip or the Buell in the winter.

Commuting an hour and 20 mins in London Traffic on the Buell... that could be fun! The manual says "Do not ride this motorcycle at parade speeds for extended periods." That'll be the last 20 mins of my commute then!
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British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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kgm
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PostPosted: 09:36 - 21 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably find the hose change your will help. Mine is a 2011, I don't know one if the calipers are the same, but I've never found the brakes inadequate, even two up. They're better than the tracer I test rode and rock solid at the lever after bring bled. I rarely have to pull hard on the levers to get decent stopping power. How old is the fluid in your lines?
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 11:43 - 21 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

kgm wrote:
Probably find the hose change your will help. Mine is a 2011, I don't know one if the calipers are the same, but I've never found the brakes inadequate, even two up. They're better than the tracer I test rode and rock solid at the lever after bring bled. I rarely have to pull hard on the levers to get decent stopping power. How old is the fluid in your lines?


New lines for this bike as is... £300. Bleeding is a nightmare because of the linked system... so I haven't considered touching the fluid. I can exert a good level of pressure on the lever and it's not spongy. It just doesn't seem to do a lot.
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British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 15:47 - 21 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a fat heavy bike built to a budget, I wonder if there is an element here of expecting the kind of braking you have from your other bikes, which are lighter and less budget built.

When I jump from my GSXR to my ZZR I always think the brakes are shit..... a 215KG bike with budget 4 pots and organic pads compared to a 170KG bike with 6 pots and sintered pads.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 16:16 - 21 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

wr6133 wrote:
It's a fat heavy bike built to a budget, I wonder if there is an element here of expecting the kind of braking you have from your other bikes, which are lighter and less budget built.

When I jump from my GSXR to my ZZR I always think the brakes are shit..... a 215KG bike with budget 4 pots and organic pads compared to a 170KG bike with 6 pots and sintered pads.


It's not built to a budget. Trust me, it isn't.
____________________
British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 20:18 - 21 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

wr6133 wrote:
It's a fat heavy bike
Yup, they are. 750's and 800's.
wr6133 wrote:
built to a budget
Erm... nope. Anything pre-VTEC (certainly 1990-2001) is massively over-engineered - VFR's are not budget.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 20:41 - 21 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThatDippyTwat wrote:
Erm... nope. Anything pre-VTEC (certainly 1990-2001) is massively over-engineered - VFR's are not budget.


Yep. It's criminal that I paid £1600 for it, as it's built like something very special indeed. It's a shame they capped off all the great engineering with cheap suspension and brakes really.

Mind you, I have a Nitron NTR shock in it, so that does do it justice! Smile
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British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 07:45 - 22 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
Yep. It's criminal that I paid £1600 for it, as it's built like something very special indeed. It's a shame they capped off all the great engineering with cheap suspension and brakes really.

Mind you, I have a Nitron NTR shock in it, so that does do it justice! Smile

£500, and it had a parts bike with it. Put fairing back on, washed it, MOT'd it. Debating a shock, probably Maxton, as they're local-ish.
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Serendipity
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PostPosted: 09:54 - 22 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are the EBC pads you have waiting to go in the double H ones? Hopefully that could make a difference. I find the initial bite and braking power of those better than OEM on the CBF1000. You've already said you have the pistons sliding freely. That's the other thing I find improves my brakes. I've let them gum up before and they get steadily more wooden. Cleaning the pistons and applying red rubber grease and sliding them in and out several times makes them wonderful again.

I didn't realise that the VFR linked system activated the rear with a pull of the front brake. My ABS CBF only goes the other way. The rear brake activates a single piston in just one of the front calipers. So using the rear brake on its own I can feel the braking from the front, but its very gentle. Where I notice a big difference is braking hard with the front on its own. Its much more powerful when used in combination with the rear pedal. That's probably an obvious statement, but the effect is more pronounced than using both brakes together on an unlinked system.
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MarJay
But it's British!



Joined: 15 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: 11:10 - 22 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serendipity wrote:
Are the EBC pads you have waiting to go in the double H ones? Hopefully that could make a difference. I find the initial bite and braking power of those better than OEM on the CBF1000. You've already said you have the pistons sliding freely. That's the other thing I find improves my brakes. I've let them gum up before and they get steadily more wooden. Cleaning the pistons and applying red rubber grease and sliding them in and out several times makes them wonderful again.

I didn't realise that the VFR linked system activated the rear with a pull of the front brake. My ABS CBF only goes the other way. The rear brake activates a single piston in just one of the front calipers. So using the rear brake on its own I can feel the braking from the front, but its very gentle. Where I notice a big difference is braking hard with the front on its own. Its much more powerful when used in combination with the rear pedal. That's probably an obvious statement, but the effect is more pronounced than using both brakes together on an unlinked system.


Yeah the VFR linked system was not repeated on another bike as I recall... I wonder why. Honda would never admit to making a mistake, but I think they did.

I do have some HH Pads, so maybe I'll fit those and see.
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British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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P.
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PostPosted: 12:08 - 22 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
Yeah the VFR linked system was not repeated on another bike as I recall...


I had linked brakes on the Blackbird, I never really noticed anything bad about it and the brakes were solid, but it was a weighty boat. Laughing
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 12:09 - 22 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
Yeah the VFR linked system was not repeated on another bike as I recall... I wonder why. Honda would never admit to making a mistake, but I think they did.


They used the Dual CBS system on a few bikes inclluding the CBR1100XX, ST1300, X11 under the original name Honda CBS often with the Additional TCS and later changed the name to Dual CBS.

Theres nothing specifically wrong with the system and I think it was an attempt at a form of ABS replacement or at least an attempt to steady a bike in the hands of a novice. Remember places like the USA you can jump on a big bike with a minimum of training then crash and sue.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 12:11 - 22 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
MarJay wrote:
Yeah the VFR linked system was not repeated on another bike as I recall... I wonder why. Honda would never admit to making a mistake, but I think they did.


They used the Dual CBS system on a few bikes inclluding the CBR1100XX, ST1300, X11 under the original name Honda CBS often with the Additional TCS and later changed the name to Dual CBS.

Theres nothing specifically wrong with the system and I think it was an attempt at a form of ABS replacement or at least an attempt to steady a bike in the hands of a novice. Remember places like the USA you can jump on a big bike with a minimum of training then crash and sue.


Yeah agreed, but I *think* most CBS setups didn't have the rear brake actuated by a lever via a master cylinder mounted on the front wheel.
____________________
British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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ADSrox0r
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PostPosted: 12:15 - 22 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

As said, there's nothing 'wrong' with the linked braking system. What's more likely is Honda realised that what they'd done is create a ballache for servicing on a safety item that discourages the amateur spanner jockey from attempting it. Therefore less likely to keep on top of routine maintenance since they have to pay someone to do it.

Bleeding a linked system is an arse ache, no doubt.

As for effectiveness though; hmm, my VTEC stops pretty damned well for a barge I have to say. Not quite as well as the ZZR with HEL lines but perfectly adequate and I've had my share of 'ohhhh shiiit' stops.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 13:41 - 22 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
Yeah agreed, but I *think* most CBS setups didn't have the rear brake actuated by a lever via a master cylinder mounted on the front wheel.


ALL of the later bikes with the renamed Dual CBS had a master cylinder on the left front fork including all the bikes i previously listed.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 14:49 - 22 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
MarJay wrote:
Yeah agreed, but I *think* most CBS setups didn't have the rear brake actuated by a lever via a master cylinder mounted on the front wheel.


ALL of the later bikes with the renamed Dual CBS had a master cylinder on the left front fork including all the bikes i previously listed.


Likely to be why there is a Dual in the Dual CBS...
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British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 22:14 - 22 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you done a proper brake service? Pistons out, seals out, scrape out the corrosion from behind the seals?

If that hasn't been done in 19 years, the brakes will feel crap and wooden.

Also worth being very sure the pad retaining pins aren't notched, and the pads are good and not soaked in oil (can't remember if this one had blown fork seals when you got it).

Rubber hoses is not the problem. 2 decades worth of gradual decline in every component of the system is.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 12:04 - 23 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robby wrote:
Have you done a proper brake service? Pistons out, seals out, scrape out the corrosion from behind the seals?

If that hasn't been done in 19 years, the brakes will feel crap and wooden.

Also worth being very sure the pad retaining pins aren't notched, and the pads are good and not soaked in oil (can't remember if this one had blown fork seals when you got it).

Rubber hoses is not the problem. 2 decades worth of gradual decline in every component of the system is.


The pistons move smoothly, the pad pins are in good nick. I recently did this service on my CBR but the VFR isn't quite in as bad a state.
____________________
British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 10:57 - 24 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update:

I opened the package containing the forks and brakes. I did some measurin'.

It turns out the Firestorm forks are exactly the same width at the base as the VFR items. The VFR items on my bike have two pinch bolts, not one as said on the other forum I encountered. Maybe this is something that changed in the 'facelift' that occurred on the 2000 model? (Along with the cat, the HISS and other things).

Also the fork length... The firestorm forks are approximately 8mm LONGER than the VFR items. Which means they'll be dead easy to fit. The width being the same meaning I can use the VFR spindle and spacers.

I'm feeling a lot better about the conversion now... but it is permanent and I won't be able to re-fit the linked gubbins because it's very complex.
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British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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ADSrox0r
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PostPosted: 11:39 - 24 Mar 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're of the mindset and prepared to de-link then definitely do it. The arse ache is one time only, future brake servicing becomes like any 'normal' bike.

I would do it to mine but I'm just no up for another project for now.
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