Motorcycle protection CE Standards, whats good whats bad?

[EazyDuz]

So I found this article which explains better than I can, the changes in testing of garments:

https://mag.sportsbikeshop.co.uk/advice/ce-testing-how-the-law-affects-the-bike-kit-you-buy/

Cliffs:

1. Previous to this law which began in 2018, no manufacturer had to submit their protective gear for testing. I.e. jackets and trousers. Only armour was mandatory to test.

2. So if you look at some brands, usually cheaper brands, you will see on the label it will say in big letters 'CE APPROVED armour'.
Open the label or the tag, and it will explain that the armour in the garment has been tested, but the garment itself has not. And in fact on some jackets, on the tag, it will say, 'This armour should be used with a suitable protective jacket'. Amazing.

3. So with the proposed new law, all clothing to be sold as motorcycle protective clothing MUST be submitted for CE testing Specifically EN 17092 or the older test, EN 13595. These test for abrasive resistance, seam strength and tear strength - useful info to know for the consumer.

4. Note that EN 17092 is only in the provisional phase for now, meaning manufacturers do not need to put their gear in for testing yet, but the ones who do have the edge IMO, some evidence their gear holds up.


So I'm on the market for some new gear. I've lost weight and most doesn't fit me anymore so selling off for better fitting stuff. Looking for new leather trousers and kevlar jeans.
The jeans I bought the other day, Bull-It brand, which on the tag is properly CE approved and tested, even giving the test figures the garment performed. They're very comfy and I'd trust them in an off.

The brand RST, ALL of their 2019 range is now CE approved and tested, but none of their 2018 models are.

Which leads me to ask, why are there still so many big manufacturers not advertising the fact that their gear is CE approved? Yes it is provisional for now, but it is going to become law. Until this law is passed its very hard to say which brands will save your life/skin and which will blow at the seams.
Plenty of cheaper brands out there like Bikers Gear, Skintan, Bike Wear Direct:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Leather-Motorbike-Motorcycle-Trousers-Biker-Jeans-Tour-Mens-CE-Armoured-Texpeed/362407472485?hash=item54612b2d65:m:mkNEFcVb8W1NVFMjx0dV4eQ

Which may not have the brand publicity or reputation, but that by no means means their products are any better or worse than the equivalent brand name which costs 3 times the price, until these laws are mandatory.
Thoughts?
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To shreds you say? Tss tss tss

[ThunderGuts]

A full CE approval will demonstrate that a garment has been tested, so is likely to have more robust seams etc., HOWEVER, there are more than one level of protection for fabrics (A, AA, AAA) and I've not yet come across a textile set that is anything above the lowest grade (A). Meanwhile, I've got CE-approved (fully lined) jeans that meet AAA standards.

Just to complicate things further, it costs money to get things tested and CE approved; for some manufacturers (particularly small ones) they simply might not bother if their products are selling well. It doesn't mean their kit isn't going to protect you, it's just not been proved by way of a certification.

There's also the fit aspect; general consensus is that good fitting lower quality gear is more likely to protect you than poor fitting better quality gear as bad fitting gear is likely to let armour move around and material to bunch up. In most cases on the roads, it's more likely you'll hit something than test the full abrasion resistance of the material so arguably it's more important the kit fits better so the armour is in the right place. Obviously the ideal situation is high quality, protective kit that fits perfectly . . .

Personally, I find the situation frustrating. I had a bit of an argument with a retailer earlier this year around a set of non-CE approved jeans I had bought, they eventually gave me a credit note and resolved the situation but I still felt that despite going into the (motorcycle accessory) shop with clear intent of buying motorcycle kit, they happily sold me something that despite armour being fitted was clearly not protective kit (not that I realised that at the time).

The situation is compounded by the fact that other than helmets, motorcycle kit is "optional" . . . interestingly the police, as they are working when wearing their kit, require it to be at the full standard as it then is classified as PPE.

Yes . . . it's a minefield, and a frustrating one at that.
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TG.

[EazyDuz]

[ThunderGuts]

I personally don't like leather kit (for various reasons), so it frustrates me that certainly for jackets there are so few alternatives that provide a decent level of protection. If they can make an 'AAA' grade set of jeans, I don't see why the same can't be achieved for a textile jacket. Perhaps we might see more of this sort of thing once the regs come into play.
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TG.

[EazyDuz]

[grr666]

How can you be sure they have simulated the exact accident you might have in testing any garment?
The certification is bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake and means sod all in the real world. If the VW scandal didn't
tell us anything else it told us the people who sell us things that require testing will falsify and manipulate test results
to get the "thing" whatever "thing" that may be, signed off so they can flog it to us. This is evident when you look at
official MPG figures vs IRL ones for instance.
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Currently enjoying products from Ford, Mazda and Yamaha
Ste wrote: Avatars are fine, it's signatures that need turning off.

[EazyDuz]

[grr666]

All this regulation only leads to more rules else what's the point. You aren't really of the belief that the powers that be
give a toss what happens to bikers are you? They're just trying to figure out a way to penalise us for not wearing CE kit
that's all. Before long it will be "Sorry sir your crash helmet was 2 years and 1 day old so we won't be paying you for your
smashed bike. Have a lovely day".

Seriously, how long til we HAVE to wear CE kit to keep our insurance valid. Once the EU get involved it won't be long.
It will probably have to all be yellow hi viz too. Just something else to put people off of buying bikes having to have a
spare 1500 quid for approved kit, after all they are really trying to get them off the road because David Attenborough
(I'd like his BBC funded air miles) said so. How long til Plod starts pulling us over to have a bit of a word about
our jacket and gloves and asks to see their labels. Sounds far fetched but these days anythings possible.
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Currently enjoying products from Ford, Mazda and Yamaha
Ste wrote: Avatars are fine, it's signatures that need turning off.

[EazyDuz]

[iooi]

[grr666]

[Bhud]

The thing about gravel rash and abrasion is, if you've had a serious crash it's the least of your worries, you're going to the hospital anyway, you could be out of action for months or even permanently, etc. Your mind plays down the gravel rash.

[EazyDuz]

[Hong Kong Phooey]

Can we please stop promoting Kevlar(tm), and refer to said garments as aramid fibre reinforced?

DuPont can't have it both fucking ways.
https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=327948


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'81 CG125, '97 FZS600 : '99 CBR600F4, '09 KTM RC8

[EazyDuz]

[wr6133]

[EazyDuz]

[wr6133]

[Yorkshire Geek]

[EazyDuz]

Reply from J and S:

Thank you for your note. Currently we have a number of products which are tested to PrEN17902 and are fully CE certified including Dainese. RST, Alpinestars and BKS. In relation to Frank Thomas we are working on several projects and are moving towards certification for all future deliveries of product and any new products which shall be introduced.

I always felt FT gear felt a bit cheap and cheerful, more like fashion leather than safety gear. Guess it is but hopefully wont be in the future. Expect the prices to go up
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To shreds you say? Tss tss tss

[Rustynut]

Gentlemen, ladies,
The new CE standard prEN17092 is just that. Its there to bring protective clothing into line, following very specific standards.
You won't be able to buy / sell goods labeled as protective (PPE) without the test. (Old stock is excepted.)

It costs around £2500 to test a new design of jacket with a specified lab.
Gone are the belt sanders, in comes the vicious looking Darmstadt impact and abrasion tester.
And that £2500 is just the test cost. You have to develop the product first and do some previsional testing so you don't blow 2 and half grand on a dud. And you have to submit a whole load of seam constructions for them to test separately.
And if it fails, its another 2.5K to get a re-test!
So its tough for someone like me who wants to launch a EN17092 AA jacket in waterproof leather. If I sell 100 jackets, that's £25 or more a jacket just to have that CE label on it.

But when it passes, it means its going to perform if you have a tumble - and it guarantees that the jacket meets the PPE standard on there label. The AA rating is the medium rating.
And my jacket will keep you drier than any untreated leather. Up to 2 hours which is usually enough time to get home.

You are, at present, not required by law to wear CE labelled clothing. Only gloves (in France!) and helmets.

For denim, the best performing product out there is Bollidster. They use new UHMWPE (ultra high molecular weight polyethylene) fibres in the core of their yarns (not the cracked used fibres that other UHMWPE producers use.)
They can achieve AA and AAA ratings from a single layer of their denim fabric. Its the strongest thing out there.
Above all, UHMWPE is UV resistant and does not deteriorate like other strong fibres (no names - there's a place for everyone). However, it doesn't like getting hot (<80 degrees C) so stay clear of that tailpipe.
And its all made in Europe (Portugal).

Anyhow, the new rules have got us all jumping through endless hoops - but I guess for a reason.
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Good people drink good beer.

[Blueberry]

I'm glad manufacturers are finally being forced to up their game.

Since the latest CE standards became mandatory, manufacturers have made a bunch of improvements. Dainese is a good example: the zips are now all covered with leather to avoid contact with the ground, and suits are now triple-stitched at the joints as specified by the CE standards.

This is all great. But it's clear that regulation was needed. E.g. Dainese products didn't used to be triple-stitched in high impact areas until the CE regulations changed.

Unfortunately, the new CE ratings require less protection than the original CE standard. I wouldn't trust clothing with the lowest rating (an A-rating) because it's been shown that regular denim jeans could pass the abrasion test for an A-rating!

[ForsythLucas4...]

It is very important to wear protection when you're driving a bike. Safety comes first!

[Teflon-Mike]

[stinkwheel]

Always remember, a cheese and red cabbage sandwich passes CE armour tests.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.