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Islander
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PostPosted: 16:50 - 25 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Islander wrote:

Read what I said. the site was chosen because it's a significant distance from continental influences and gives an excellent representation of pacific region air quality


Other than being on a fecking massive CO2 emitting active volcano?

Islander wrote:
The readings aren't from the north pole, they're from Greenland and Antarctica a


Ah, those famously typical CO2 emitting urban sprawls.

Seems a fair comparison. Now - side of a volcano. Before 1958 - the country with probably the lowest CO2 pollution level possible.

One born every minute.


The ice core atmospheric data is a good representation of average conditions as is the Mauna Loa data.

Here, for the hard of thinking, let me give you an explanatory quote that pretty much echoes my previous explanation:

"Why Mauna Loa? Early attempts to measure CO2 in the USA and Scandinavia found that the readings varied a lot due to the influence of growing plants and the exhaust from motors. Mauna Loa is ideal because it is so remote from big population centres. Also, on tropical islands at night, the prevailing winds blow from the land out to sea, which effect brings clean, well-mixed Central Pacific air from high in the atmosphere to the observatory. This removes any interference coming from the vegetation lower down on the island.

But how about gas from the volcano? It is true that volcanoes blow out CO2 from time to time and that this can interfere with the readings. Most of the time, though, the prevailing winds blow the volcanic gasses away from the observatory. But when the winds do sometimes blow from active vents towards the observatory, the influence from the volcano is obvious on the normally consistent records and any dubious readings can be easily spotted and edited out (Ryan, 1995)."


https://skepticalscience.com/pics/4keeling3.jpg

"Importantly, Mauna Loa is not the only atmospheric measuring station in the world. As the graph from NOAA shows, other stations show the same year-after-year increasing trend. The seasonal saw-tooth varies from place to place, of course, but the background trend remains steadily upwards. The Keeling Curve is one of the best-defined results in climatology and there really are no valid scientific reasons for doubting it."

Note the data sources for the graph in the article.

Barrow:

"The Barrow Atmospheric Baseline Observatory, established in 1973, is located near sea level 8 km east of Utqiaġvik (formerly Barrow), Alaska at 71.32 degrees north. This facility is staffed by 2 engineers/scientists who often commute to work in winter on snow machines. Due to its unique location, dedicated and highly-trained staff, excellent power and communications infrastructure, the site is host to numerous cooperative research projects from around the world.

BRW's location receives minimal influence from anthropogenic effects. It is about 8 km northeast of the village of Utqiaġvik and has a prevailing east-northeast wind off the Beaufort Sea. It is attended at least 5 days a week for routine inspection and maintenance of the instrumentation. Although the measurements at BRW are made over open tundra, there are large lagoons and a number of lakes in the vicinity, and the Arctic Ocean is less than 3 km northwest of the site. Because of its proximity to these bodies of water and the fact that the prevailing winds are off the Beaufort Sea, BRW is perhaps best characterized as having an Arctic maritime climate affected by variations of weather and sea ice conditions in the Central Arctic."


Samoa:

"The American Samoa Observatory is located on the northeastern tip of Tutuila island, American Samoa, on a ridge overlooking the South Pacific Ocean. The observatory was established in 1974 on a 26.7 acre site as one of the NOAA/ESRL GMD Baseline Observatories."

South Pole:

"The Atmospheric Research Observatory (ARO) at the Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station is a National Science Foundation (NSF) facility located near the geographic South Pole. The NSF has allocated ARO to a long-term research program conducted by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Global Monitoring Division (NOAA/OAR/ESRL/GMD)."

Oh look - the curves are pretty much the same. Fancy that!

Read it carefully, park the dogma and you might just understand. Laughing



You still haven't responded to the GMST data by the way. Still evading it?
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PostPosted: 18:44 - 25 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great, as already established we have a tad more CO2 than a few years ago and the concentration is going up...

What does that actually mean?

Any chance someone could, for example, have a hermetically sealed green house filled with plants, insects and a few small mammals & reptiles (plus the botanists, etc. maintaining it) running in an artificially maintained atmosphere with CO2 held at 1% (i.e. dramatic but not enough to kill anyone.)

I'd be interested in the data from that!
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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 19:07 - 25 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are we dead yet?
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Islander
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PostPosted: 20:00 - 25 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howling Terror wrote:
Are we dead yet?


Some of us might be brain dead Razz
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Islander
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PostPosted: 21:44 - 25 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

HardlyDavidson wrote:
Great, as already established we have a tad more CO2 than a few years ago and the concentration is going up...

What does that actually mean?

Any chance someone could, for example, have a hermetically sealed green house filled with plants, insects and a few small mammals & reptiles (plus the botanists, etc. maintaining it) running in an artificially maintained atmosphere with CO2 held at 1% (i.e. dramatic but not enough to kill anyone.)

I'd be interested in the data from that!


It's a bit more than a tad. It means that there will be an increase in the greenhouse effect and the global mean surface temperature. That in turn leads to changes in the global climate.

What would your experiment achieve? It can't be a test of the greenhouse potential of CO2 - that would be taken care of by the glass or whatever in the greenhouse panes. Colour me intrigued Smile
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PostPosted: 21:57 - 25 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a big difference between

"If CO2 levels continue to rise we think shit might happen..."

and

"We did an experiment with a greenhouse in a high CO2 atmosphere and all the small furry creatures died..."

Blank looks and mouth breathing for the former, tears and action for the latter.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 22:09 - 25 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing's going to be asphyxiated or poisoned by atmospheric CO2 unless the partial pressure increases to approx 10% (100,000 ppm)
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 22:34 - 25 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

HardlyDavidson wrote:
There's a big difference between

"If CO2 levels continue to rise we think shit might happen..."

and

"We did an experiment with a greenhouse in a high CO2 atmosphere and all the small furry creatures died..."

Blank looks and mouth breathing for the former, tears and action for the latter.


You do know how the warming mechanism works, don't you, and that the fact it works is not in dispute?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 03:43 - 26 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

HardlyDavidson wrote:
Great, as already established we have a tad more CO2 than a few years ago and the concentration is going up...

What does that actually mean?

Any chance someone could, for example, have a hermetically sealed green house filled with plants, insects and a few small mammals & reptiles (plus the botanists, etc. maintaining it) running in an artificially maintained atmosphere with CO2 held at 1% (i.e. dramatic but not enough to kill anyone.)

I'd be interested in the data from that!


These things are real and were once very common.

80-Year-Old Man Hasn’t Watered This Sealed Bottle Garden Since 1972 And It’s Still Alive

https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/sealed-bottle-garden-david-latimer-1.jpg


And to answer your main point...

HardlyDavidson wrote:

There's a big difference between

"If CO2 levels continue to rise we think shit might happen..."

and

"We did an experiment with a greenhouse in a high CO2 atmosphere and all the small furry creatures died..."

Blank looks and mouth breathing for the former, tears and action for the latter.


The earth isn't a sealed container. Gases can and do escape from it. As long as they can exceed 25,000mph, they'll escape the earth's gravitational pull forever and never come back.

25000mph sounds like a lot but it's actually very easy to achieve when you're a tiny, almost massless gas molecule knocking about with other molecules in the upper atmosphere, it doesn't take much to be booted up to such speed. Helium and hydrogen escape with ease, for example.

So you're right, doing an experiment in a sealed greenhouse is not the answer, and is not very realistic.

The scientific reasoning behind our 'fear' of CO2 is that its resonance frequency is similar to infrared light, aka heat. This means it holds onto heat energy, instead of letting it pass.

I was going to post this chart earlier but it seemed irrelevant. However, it is now very relevant.

https://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/schmidt_05/curve_s.gif

This is called a blackbody spectrum and is a measurement of the electromagnetic energy entering or leaving a planetary body. The red line is the 'ideal' measurement predicted by mathematics, and is almost exactly what the chart looks like if you take a reading of the sun, which has no atmosphere.

Earth's atmosphere absorbs a lot of electromagnetic energy, as shown by the chart above. This happens because particles (gases) in the atmosphere absorb the heat and hold onto it. This is why we use the term greenhouse gas, because it quite literally causes a greenhouse effect on the planet.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas with a major contribution to the above chart. The only greater contender is H2O, aka clouds. Methane is also a serious contributor but it isn't shown.

This isn't make-believe or scaremongering, it's real and actually very basic science. Add CO2 to a body for which the primary source of heating is a pure blackbody spectrum (i.e. the sun), and you're guaranteed to have more of that heat held in.

If the heat rises too fast, you're guaranteed to have ecosystems and animals killed by it. This has been tested too, by the way, and sometimes is just glaringly obvious. Polar bears are a good example. They simply can't evolve fast enough to keep up with their changing habitat, which is (was) mostly ice floating on water, which they now have to swim across (and fail).

Sure, humans are hardy fuckers who will definitely not die in new or harsher climates. But things will be quite different if our food dies out, or we have to start fighting over arable land (desertification is also a massive issue).
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Sister Sledge
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PostPosted: 07:04 - 26 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Psst: I'd steer away from polar bears as an example. Numbers are either stable or increasing and only showing tiny reductions in numbers around the Southern Beaufort Sea Wink
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PostPosted: 11:07 - 26 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
But here's the issue. This div doesn't realise his ignorance. There's literally no getting through to him. Dunning Kruger is in full effect. Even worse is that he continuously demonstrates an absolute lack of desire to understand the topics he wades into. He never asks questions or engages in rational debate. It's all just statements based on personal hunches and biased, hysterical news articles, with scorn given to anyone who dares questions or refute his logic.

It's way past sneering, he gets everything he deserves on here.


Indeed, Dunning-Kruger is in full effect... but that cuts both ways and sadly we have both proved it to be true.

Love to know what hysterical news articles you're talking about, I haven't cited one so far. Sam Harris could hardly be described as "hysterical" Rolling Eyes

What is it that upsets you so much? The fact that I understand and agree with all the data but object to the way it is presented. Or that I object to the persecution of the poor and downtrodden all for the cause of "saving" the planet?
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PostPosted: 11:09 - 26 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Wow! He's discovered a whole new species of plant which doesn't need CO2. Either that or the bottle leaks, or more likely, it's bullshit.

Plants absorb CO2 and make O2, the atmosphere in that bottle would soon become too low on CO2 for a plant to survive without a top up. Water can recycle in a sealed environment with plants, but not CO2.


I think there'd at least be some CO2 generated by rotting vegetable matter in the soil. But anyway, it's not sealed as it has a cork stopper.
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PostPosted: 11:35 - 26 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, it might not be cork, looking at the photos again. Regardless, a single species terrarium is hardly what I'd call a "garden in a bottle." It's a bit pot luck with such things...

We might all be dead in few thousand years but I bet these will keep going:

Tillandsia Air Plants
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 11:43 - 26 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:


Wow! He's discovered a whole new species of plant which doesn't need CO2. Either that or the bottle leaks, or more likely, it's bullshit.

Plants absorb CO2 and make O2, the atmosphere in that bottle would soon become too low on CO2 for a plant to survive without a top up. Water can recycle in a sealed environment with plants, but not CO2.


So you think there are only plants in there?

What does soil contain?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 11:47 - 26 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sister Sledge wrote:
Psst: I'd steer away from polar bears as an example. Numbers are either stable or increasing and only showing tiny reductions in numbers around the Southern Beaufort Sea Wink


Fair, but I think you should read this: https://polarbearsinternational.org/research/research-qa/are-polar-bear-populations-increasing-in-fact-booming/
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PostPosted: 13:34 - 26 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
mpd72 has painted quite the character for himself in the several years he's been on this forum. I was talking about wider issues than this topic alone, and I wasn't talking about you at all.


Ah, my apologies. As you quoted me I thought you were having a pop Wink

Thing is though, if you want to get anything done about Climate Change, you'll have to get it past Trump so don't expect an easy ride!
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PostPosted: 13:41 - 26 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
Sister Sledge wrote:
Psst: I'd steer away from polar bears as an example. Numbers are either stable or increasing and only showing tiny reductions in numbers around the Southern Beaufort Sea Wink


Fair, but I think you should read this: https://polarbearsinternational.org/research/research-qa/are-polar-bear-populations-increasing-in-fact-booming/


I've always been suspicious of the polar bear thing. Surely if polar bears are doing really well then one would see an increase in the corresponding seal populations.

Having said that if there was a bear I'd want to bet on to be more adaptable in a changing environment I'd take the polar bear over the panda bear (blatant zoologist troll) Laughing
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 13:54 - 26 Jun 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

HardlyDavidson wrote:
Surely if polar bears are doing really well then one would see an increase in the corresponding seal populations.

Quite the opposite.

You do know how the warming mechanism works, don't you, and that the fact it works is not in dispute?
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