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Islander |
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Islander World Chat Champion
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Posted: 16:50 - 25 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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mpd72 wrote: | Islander wrote: |
Read what I said. the site was chosen because it's a significant distance from continental influences and gives an excellent representation of pacific region air quality |
Other than being on a fecking massive CO2 emitting active volcano?
Islander wrote: | The readings aren't from the north pole, they're from Greenland and Antarctica a |
Ah, those famously typical CO2 emitting urban sprawls.
Seems a fair comparison. Now - side of a volcano. Before 1958 - the country with probably the lowest CO2 pollution level possible.
One born every minute. |
The ice core atmospheric data is a good representation of average conditions as is the Mauna Loa data.
Here, for the hard of thinking, let me give you an explanatory quote that pretty much echoes my previous explanation:
"Why Mauna Loa? Early attempts to measure CO2 in the USA and Scandinavia found that the readings varied a lot due to the influence of growing plants and the exhaust from motors. Mauna Loa is ideal because it is so remote from big population centres. Also, on tropical islands at night, the prevailing winds blow from the land out to sea, which effect brings clean, well-mixed Central Pacific air from high in the atmosphere to the observatory. This removes any interference coming from the vegetation lower down on the island.
But how about gas from the volcano? It is true that volcanoes blow out CO2 from time to time and that this can interfere with the readings. Most of the time, though, the prevailing winds blow the volcanic gasses away from the observatory. But when the winds do sometimes blow from active vents towards the observatory, the influence from the volcano is obvious on the normally consistent records and any dubious readings can be easily spotted and edited out (Ryan, 1995)."
https://skepticalscience.com/pics/4keeling3.jpg
"Importantly, Mauna Loa is not the only atmospheric measuring station in the world. As the graph from NOAA shows, other stations show the same year-after-year increasing trend. The seasonal saw-tooth varies from place to place, of course, but the background trend remains steadily upwards. The Keeling Curve is one of the best-defined results in climatology and there really are no valid scientific reasons for doubting it."
Note the data sources for the graph in the article.
Barrow:
"The Barrow Atmospheric Baseline Observatory, established in 1973, is located near sea level 8 km east of Utqiaġvik (formerly Barrow), Alaska at 71.32 degrees north. This facility is staffed by 2 engineers/scientists who often commute to work in winter on snow machines. Due to its unique location, dedicated and highly-trained staff, excellent power and communications infrastructure, the site is host to numerous cooperative research projects from around the world.
BRW's location receives minimal influence from anthropogenic effects. It is about 8 km northeast of the village of Utqiaġvik and has a prevailing east-northeast wind off the Beaufort Sea. It is attended at least 5 days a week for routine inspection and maintenance of the instrumentation. Although the measurements at BRW are made over open tundra, there are large lagoons and a number of lakes in the vicinity, and the Arctic Ocean is less than 3 km northwest of the site. Because of its proximity to these bodies of water and the fact that the prevailing winds are off the Beaufort Sea, BRW is perhaps best characterized as having an Arctic maritime climate affected by variations of weather and sea ice conditions in the Central Arctic."
Samoa:
"The American Samoa Observatory is located on the northeastern tip of Tutuila island, American Samoa, on a ridge overlooking the South Pacific Ocean. The observatory was established in 1974 on a 26.7 acre site as one of the NOAA/ESRL GMD Baseline Observatories."
South Pole:
"The Atmospheric Research Observatory (ARO) at the Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station is a National Science Foundation (NSF) facility located near the geographic South Pole. The NSF has allocated ARO to a long-term research program conducted by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Global Monitoring Division (NOAA/OAR/ESRL/GMD)."
Oh look - the curves are pretty much the same. Fancy that!
Read it carefully, park the dogma and you might just understand.
You still haven't responded to the GMST data by the way. Still evading it? |
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Easy-X Super Spammer
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Posted: 18:44 - 25 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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Great, as already established we have a tad more CO2 than a few years ago and the concentration is going up...
What does that actually mean?
Any chance someone could, for example, have a hermetically sealed green house filled with plants, insects and a few small mammals & reptiles (plus the botanists, etc. maintaining it) running in an artificially maintained atmosphere with CO2 held at 1% (i.e. dramatic but not enough to kill anyone.)
I'd be interested in the data from that! ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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Lord Percy World Chat Champion
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Posted: 03:43 - 26 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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HardlyDavidson wrote: | Great, as already established we have a tad more CO2 than a few years ago and the concentration is going up...
What does that actually mean?
Any chance someone could, for example, have a hermetically sealed green house filled with plants, insects and a few small mammals & reptiles (plus the botanists, etc. maintaining it) running in an artificially maintained atmosphere with CO2 held at 1% (i.e. dramatic but not enough to kill anyone.)
I'd be interested in the data from that! |
These things are real and were once very common.
80-Year-Old Man Hasn’t Watered This Sealed Bottle Garden Since 1972 And It’s Still Alive
https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/sealed-bottle-garden-david-latimer-1.jpg
And to answer your main point...
HardlyDavidson wrote: |
There's a big difference between
"If CO2 levels continue to rise we think shit might happen..."
and
"We did an experiment with a greenhouse in a high CO2 atmosphere and all the small furry creatures died..."
Blank looks and mouth breathing for the former, tears and action for the latter. |
The earth isn't a sealed container. Gases can and do escape from it. As long as they can exceed 25,000mph, they'll escape the earth's gravitational pull forever and never come back.
25000mph sounds like a lot but it's actually very easy to achieve when you're a tiny, almost massless gas molecule knocking about with other molecules in the upper atmosphere, it doesn't take much to be booted up to such speed. Helium and hydrogen escape with ease, for example.
So you're right, doing an experiment in a sealed greenhouse is not the answer, and is not very realistic.
The scientific reasoning behind our 'fear' of CO2 is that its resonance frequency is similar to infrared light, aka heat. This means it holds onto heat energy, instead of letting it pass.
I was going to post this chart earlier but it seemed irrelevant. However, it is now very relevant.
https://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/schmidt_05/curve_s.gif
This is called a blackbody spectrum and is a measurement of the electromagnetic energy entering or leaving a planetary body. The red line is the 'ideal' measurement predicted by mathematics, and is almost exactly what the chart looks like if you take a reading of the sun, which has no atmosphere.
Earth's atmosphere absorbs a lot of electromagnetic energy, as shown by the chart above. This happens because particles (gases) in the atmosphere absorb the heat and hold onto it. This is why we use the term greenhouse gas, because it quite literally causes a greenhouse effect on the planet.
CO2 is a greenhouse gas with a major contribution to the above chart. The only greater contender is H2O, aka clouds. Methane is also a serious contributor but it isn't shown.
This isn't make-believe or scaremongering, it's real and actually very basic science. Add CO2 to a body for which the primary source of heating is a pure blackbody spectrum (i.e. the sun), and you're guaranteed to have more of that heat held in.
If the heat rises too fast, you're guaranteed to have ecosystems and animals killed by it. This has been tested too, by the way, and sometimes is just glaringly obvious. Polar bears are a good example. They simply can't evolve fast enough to keep up with their changing habitat, which is (was) mostly ice floating on water, which they now have to swim across (and fail).
Sure, humans are hardy fuckers who will definitely not die in new or harsher climates. But things will be quite different if our food dies out, or we have to start fighting over arable land (desertification is also a massive issue). |
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Sister Sledge |
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Sister Sledge World Chat Champion
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Posted: 07:04 - 26 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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Psst: I'd steer away from polar bears as an example. Numbers are either stable or increasing and only showing tiny reductions in numbers around the Southern Beaufort Sea ____________________ CCM 404 DS |
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- Super Spammer
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Posted: 09:52 - 26 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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An interesting read even if you just accept the parts in bold, copied and pasted, showing Judith Curry's testimony to The House Oversight and Reform Environmental Subcommittee in a Hearing on Recovery, Resilience and Readiness – Contending with Natural Disasters in the Wake of Climate Change.
I thank the Chairman, Ranking Member and the Subcommittee for the opportunity to offer testimony today. I’ve devoted four decades to conducting research related to extreme weather events and climate change. As President of Climate Forecast Applications Network, I’ve been helping decision makers use weather and climate information to reduce vulnerability to extreme events.
The paradox of weather disasters is that they are at the same time highly surprising, as well as quite predictable. We shouldn’t be surprised by extreme weather events, when comparable events have occurred during the past century.
The sense that extreme weather events are now more frequent or intense, caused by manmade global warming, is symptomatic of ‘weather amnesia.’
The devastating impacts in 2017 from Hurricanes Harvey, Irma and Maria invoked numerous alarming statements about hurricanes and global warming. However, it’s rarely mentioned that 2017 broke an 11 year drought in U.S. major hurricane landfalls. This major hurricane drought is unprecedented in the historical record.
Of the 13 strongest U.S. landfalling hurricanes in the historical record, only three have occurred since 1970 (Andrew, Michael, Charley). Four of these strongest hurricanes occurred in the decade following 1926.
Recent international and national assessment reports acknowledge that there is not yet evidence of changes in the frequency or intensity of hurricanes, droughts, floods or wildfires that can be attributed to manmade global warming.
The elevated wildfires in the western U.S. since the 1980’s is partly caused by state and federal polices that have resulted in catastrophically overgrown forests. Comparable levels of wildfire activity were observed earlier in the 20th century.
The National Climate Assessment recognized that the Dust Bowl era of the 1930s remains the benchmark period for extreme drought and heat in the historical record.
A few comments regarding projections of future Atlantic hurricane activity.
My company provides seasonal forecasts of extreme weather. For the 2019 hurricane and wildfire seasons, we expect an active hurricane season with substantial landfall risk, whereas we expect the western wildfire season to be relatively quiet.
Out to at least 2050, natural climate variability is expected to dominate future hurricane variations, rather than any warming trend. The most important looming factor is an anticipated future shift to the cold phase of the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation. This shift is expected to overall reduce hurricane and wildfire risk for a period of several decades.
With regards to projections for 2100, models from the NOAA Laboratory in Princeton show a substantial decrease in the number of hurricanes in response to global warming. Their models show an increase of about 5% in the maximum intensity of Atlantic hurricanes.
Owing to the large natural variability of Atlantic hurricanes, any influence of manmade global warming
would not be noticeable for a number of decades.
Blaming extreme weather events on manmade climate change, and focusing only on what to do after lives and property have been destroyed, deflects from understanding and addressing the real sources of the problems, which in part include federal policies.
Possible scenarios of incremental worsening of weather and climate extremes don’t change the fundamental fact that many regions of the U.S. are not well adapted to the current weather and climate variability.
We have an opportunity to be proactive in preparing for weather disasters. Rather than focusing on recovery from extreme events, we can aim to reduce future vulnerability and increase thrivability by evolving our infrastructures, policies and practices.
Adaptation strategies that promote thrivability simultaneously protect against extreme weather events while at the same time providing other benefits to human or natural systems.
Apart from infrastructure improvements, improvements to federal and state policies can substantially reduce the occurrence and extent of wildfires, and can help mitigate the damage associated with landfalling hurricanes. Further, tactical adaptation practices incorporating tailored weather forecast products can help mitigate the damages associated with extreme weather events.
Places that find solutions to their current challenges associated with extreme weather events will be well prepared to cope with any additional incremental stresses from future climate change.
This concludes my testimony. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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- Super Spammer
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Posted: 09:59 - 26 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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Wow! He's discovered a whole new species of plant which doesn't need CO2. Either that or the bottle leaks, or more likely, it's bullshit.
Plants absorb CO2 and make O2, the atmosphere in that bottle would soon become too low on CO2 for a plant to survive without a top up. Water can recycle in a sealed environment with plants, but not CO2. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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Posted: 11:07 - 26 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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Lord Percy wrote: | But here's the issue. This div doesn't realise his ignorance. There's literally no getting through to him. Dunning Kruger is in full effect. Even worse is that he continuously demonstrates an absolute lack of desire to understand the topics he wades into. He never asks questions or engages in rational debate. It's all just statements based on personal hunches and biased, hysterical news articles, with scorn given to anyone who dares questions or refute his logic.
It's way past sneering, he gets everything he deserves on here. |
Indeed, Dunning-Kruger is in full effect... but that cuts both ways and sadly we have both proved it to be true.
Love to know what hysterical news articles you're talking about, I haven't cited one so far. Sam Harris could hardly be described as "hysterical"
What is it that upsets you so much? The fact that I understand and agree with all the data but object to the way it is presented. Or that I object to the persecution of the poor and downtrodden all for the cause of "saving" the planet? ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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Posted: 11:09 - 26 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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mpd72 wrote: | Wow! He's discovered a whole new species of plant which doesn't need CO2. Either that or the bottle leaks, or more likely, it's bullshit.
Plants absorb CO2 and make O2, the atmosphere in that bottle would soon become too low on CO2 for a plant to survive without a top up. Water can recycle in a sealed environment with plants, but not CO2. |
I think there'd at least be some CO2 generated by rotting vegetable matter in the soil. But anyway, it's not sealed as it has a cork stopper. ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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- Super Spammer
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Posted: 11:16 - 26 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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HardlyDavidson wrote: | mpd72 wrote: | Wow! He's discovered a whole new species of plant which doesn't need CO2. Either that or the bottle leaks, or more likely, it's bullshit.
Plants absorb CO2 and make O2, the atmosphere in that bottle would soon become too low on CO2 for a plant to survive without a top up. Water can recycle in a sealed environment with plants, but not CO2. |
I think there'd at least be some CO2 generated by rotting vegetable matter in the soil. But anyway, it's not sealed as it has a cork stopper. |
Correct and the entire reason you leave freshly bottled wine upright for a few days before storing in racks. To let the gas escape through the cork.
You'd think the forums resident expert of everything might have noticed. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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Posted: 11:35 - 26 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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Actually, it might not be cork, looking at the photos again. Regardless, a single species terrarium is hardly what I'd call a "garden in a bottle." It's a bit pot luck with such things...
We might all be dead in few thousand years but I bet these will keep going:
Tillandsia Air Plants ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy World Chat Champion
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Posted: 11:43 - 26 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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mpd72 wrote: |
Wow! He's discovered a whole new species of plant which doesn't need CO2. Either that or the bottle leaks, or more likely, it's bullshit.
Plants absorb CO2 and make O2, the atmosphere in that bottle would soon become too low on CO2 for a plant to survive without a top up. Water can recycle in a sealed environment with plants, but not CO2. |
So you think there are only plants in there?
What does soil contain? |
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Posted: 13:34 - 26 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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Lord Percy wrote: | mpd72 has painted quite the character for himself in the several years he's been on this forum. I was talking about wider issues than this topic alone, and I wasn't talking about you at all. |
Ah, my apologies. As you quoted me I thought you were having a pop
Thing is though, if you want to get anything done about Climate Change, you'll have to get it past Trump so don't expect an easy ride! ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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Posted: 13:41 - 26 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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I've always been suspicious of the polar bear thing. Surely if polar bears are doing really well then one would see an increase in the corresponding seal populations.
Having said that if there was a bear I'd want to bet on to be more adaptable in a changing environment I'd take the polar bear over the panda bear (blatant zoologist troll) ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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Posted: 13:55 - 26 Jun 2019 Post subject: |
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HardlyDavidson wrote: |
Thing is though, if you want to get anything done about Climate Change, you'll have to get it past Trump so don't expect an easy ride! |
He ran away to massively polluting China, China, China to avoid paying the tax payer back his vast student loans, which he built up by work dodging well into adulthood
Another hypocrite telling those of us not causing the problem to solve it for those who do, at our cost, not theirs. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 4 years, 304 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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