Advice on my rights as a buyer

[JonT]

Here is the situation:

4 Weeks ago I bought a Suzuki RG125 Wolf from northwalesmotorcycles ( https://www.northwalesmotorcycles.co.uk/ ) in wrexham for £700

Since then I have only used it for 3 days, the first day was 45minute run around with my friend as I got used to it, the second day was about 90minute at low speeds just practicing handling and uturns, the third day I went for a decent ride out with my friend who rides an xjr400.

On this third day things started to go bad, after about 40minutes of riding we just came to the beginning of Parbold hill (near the wigin tree pub for people who are local) and the bike started to run out of steam. My first thought was that I had simply run out of petrol, so I pulled over and on further inspection I had absolutely loads left.

My friend and I tried to get it going again but it was no use, so I chain the bike up and we go on the back of his to collect a van to get it. Anyhow after another friend takes a look at it he does a compression test and finds it only has 65psi of compression in it (far too low), and says that it needs a rebore and a new piston badly.

I go to find out how much this cost and was quite shocked as I don't have enough money at the momment to fix it myself (further details of the quote available here https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=45103 )

Then it struck me, the bike shop I got it from must have known about this issue before they sold it me and they infact did an MOT on it just before I went to pick it up (although I assume it was a half hearted MOT since they were selling it).

What can I do about trying to get them to repair the bike for me or give me a full refund? What rights do I have?

Please help me as I am going to need some method of transport within the next 2 weeks and I don't know what to do.

[mr jamez]

Well, it was 4 weeks ago and it is a used bike, was there any warranty? I am not up with the law really, but I doubt there is much you can do. Perhaps give them a ring or send them a (polite) letter to see what they have to say about it.

Low compression and the MOT is irrelevant as this is not tested. They could just say that you ran it without oil, or thrashed it from cold which is what might have caused the top end to go.

[Scotsman37]

I've had a similar situation with a bike dealer last summer and I've been through the procedures you're about to through.

Firstly, under the Trading Standards act, part 5a, the motor (car, bike, van , etc.) must be fit for the purpose it was sold for even if it used and in reasonably good condition. You will not be covered by this act if you pay for example if you pay a very small amount of money ex. £150 for a car or bike then don't expect it to last long. Also, the guarantee given by a motor dealer is NOT an alternative to your rights under part 5a but an addition to your rights!

ex.

My bike a Kawasaki Zephyr 550cc gearbox jammed after only 3 months of use and I had originally reported a problem with the bike going into neutral within 1 month of buying the bike and the assistant only adjusted the clutch cable back then to try remedy the situation.


Advised by Trading Standards Officer then when the bike was 2nd hand and was built in 1991 and it was well maintained since then and it was an internal part that went wrong. So he advised the bike shop owner by correspondence that under part 5a of the Trading Standards Act that the law was on my side, and he would have to repair the bike at his own cost or give me a full refund due to me only having the bike for less than 6 months or so.

The Trading Standards can only advise the bike owner of your rights and where they stand and are unable to enforce it due to it being a civil matter rather than a criminal act.

What I did is I contacted a very large newspaper's Judge which handles consumer complaints against traders and will print if it's really good and they will also send correspondence to the trader for comment about the matter. So, with large newspaper contacting them along with Trading Standards and the bike shop owner's own solicitor told him to give my bike back to fully repaired at NO COST to me, because if I took him to a civil court he would have certainly lost and had to pay my solicitor's fee and the courts fee too along with any compenssation deemed necessary by the Civil Court's Judge !


Trading Standards did advise at the out set to send correspondence always be recorded delivery as they cannot say they never received it because Royal Mail have a record of it being signed for !

Good luck and quote them Trading Standards Act part 5a of the Sale of Good act as it was not fit for what it was sold for !

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Here's was my letter to the owner of Ride On motorcycles sent by recorded delivery and you should read it !!!


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Without Prejudice!

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Dear Sir,

As you are aware my Kawasaki Zephyr 550cc motorcycle registration no. XXX XXX was recently repaired by your company after a gearbox failure while I was on Holiday. Despite repeated assurances by representatives of your company that this repair was being carried out under the terms of the original warranty, I was somewhat shocked, when I arrived to pick up the vehicle, to be told by the manager of your workshop, that you had instructed that I should be charged full cost, approximately £1,278, for the repair.

As you will no doubt recall, I reported a problem with selecting neutral gear within two weeks of purchasing the vehicle and returned it to your shop, where I was told by one of your employees, Stephen Lafferty, that if it happened again, I should, “Just rock the bike backwards & forwards and rev the engine until it does go back into neutral.” Which I think you’ll agree isn’t exactly the best action to be taking when sitting in a line of traffic or at a busy road junction. On the numerous occasions when the problem reoccurred, I carried out his instructions. But on the first occasion that the bike was taken on a lengthy run, the gearbox locked up completely going into a bend, causing me to drop the bike, and my friend, who was riding behind me, to take evasive action to avoid me. The two of us then had to brave fast moving traffic in order two haul the bike, rear wheel locked, to the side of the road. Where it stayed for 18 hours until inspected by an AA repair man, who confirmed that the gearbox was jammed and the only way the bike would be going anywhere in the near future would be in the back of a van.

When I contacted your shop, and spoke to Stephen Lafferty, he said he remembered me reporting the gear selection problem and referred my call to you. After I explained the situation, you attempted to pass the fault off as a minor clutch adjustment problem and I passed the phone to my friend, a motorcyclist with more than 20 years experience who informed you that a jammed gearbox had nothing to do with the clutch and, regardless of your original warranty, as I had owned the bike for less than three months (during which it has been in and out of your workshop with a catalogue of faults) I was well within my rights under the terms of the Sales of Goods Act 1979 (amended by Sale and Supply Goods Act 1994 and the Sales and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002) to demand a total refund or repair of the vehicle at your cost, as it was not of merchantable quality and fit for the reason it was sold. You then told us that as the fault had been reported within the period of the original warranty, and the gearbox by rights should’ve been stripped down to see why it wouldn’t go into neutral; the repair would be covered by its terms. But transportation back to Glasgow would not.

When my father and I delivered the bike to your workshop the following day, We were again told that the repair would covered by the warranty. I would not have allowed you to strip it down otherwise.

A few days later my friend and I visited your shop and we were taken into the workshop to see the stripped down gearbox and damaged parts. Which we were told by your workshop manager had been caused by a broken circlip which was totally outwith my control. I again asked if the repair was being covered by the warranty and was assured, yet again, with my friend standing next to me, that it was.

I then contacted your shop on a weekly basis for updates on the repair. Each time I was told that it was being covered by the warranty and you were waiting for parts to be delivered from your supplier. But after six weeks of the same reply, my patience began to wear a bit thin, especially when I was told by a Kawasaki dealer and Kawasaki UK themselves, that the parts were readily available and able to be supplied within 24 hours. When I conveyed this to your staff, I was told that there was no need to worry, as the bike was being covered by the warranty and would be ready in a few days. However when I returned on the 19th of August, seven weeks after the bike had entered your workshop. I was told that the wrong parts had been supplied and I would have to wait even longer. On voicing my complaints, I was again referred to you and told that the correct part would be delivered within a day or two. You even added “Don’t worry it’s being repaired under warranty as I agreed.” So why then when the bike was finally restored to the state that it should’ve been in when I purchased it, was I presented with a bill for £1,278 and told that you would be keeping it until I paid up? Then to add insult to injury, informed that I should be happy to pay as my bike was now “enhanced” and better than before. I didn’t ask for my bike to be “enhanced.” I only asked for it to be restored to a condition in which it was able to be used for the reason it was sold (i.e. ridden, not looked at).

I have been contact with the City of Glasgow, Consumer Advice & Trading Standards Office and have been advised to convey to you, via recorded delivery, my feelings regarding this matter and my wishes that you as the owner of Ride On Motorcycles Ltd. honour your original agreement to repair my bike under warranty.

May I also point out to you, as confirmed by the Consumer Advice & Trading Standards Office, that the warranty provided by your company is not an alternative to my rights as a consumer, but actually an addition to it.

A copy of this correspondence has been forwarded to The Judge at The Sunday Mail, City of Glasgow Consumer & Trading Standards Office and also the Retail Motor Industry Federation Conciliation Service.

Yours faithfully,

XXXXXXXXXXX

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Needless to say I won out right at no cost to me !!!

[Akiraprise]

It's a shame we have to chase the dealers and garages about this sort of thing, they should just DO it rather than wait for us to ask for it.

I'm having the same sort of problems...

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=44743

[The Dude]

It strikes me that most bike shops are owned and operated by cowboys. I have had serious problems in the past with the shop owned by Jeremy McWilliams in Belfast which i have talked about here before many times. You go in, start chatting to them, get friendly with them (because we're all bikers ya know, nice to be friendly). They tell you they'll do this and that and ya get handed a coffee everytime ya go in the shop and you leave with your new bike. Then, a few weeks or a few months later you have a problem with the bike and you bring it back to them. I had such things said to me like "You're not starting it right" or "You're not revving it enough" or "It was ok when we took it out yesterday" or "What petrol station do you use? Oh that one. Don't use that one mate, dirty petrol" My favorite time was when i was taken into the workshop so that the 20 yearold mechanic could show me how the bike should be started properly. (The bike was an RS125 by the way). This is how he told me to start a 2 stroke RS125. "ok mate this is what ya do. Full choke, no throttle. Press the start button and then rev it a little. Take the choke of and leave it for a minute or 2. Then rev it right up to 11,000 revs a few times" (remember, the engine is still cold after a minute or 2).
I ended up asking a friend i worked with who has been riding bikes for years to come to the shop with me. They even started arguing with him.lol. They are happy to take your money, but don't want to know after you leave the shop. What ever happened to the Bikers look after eachother theory? These people are risking our lives when they sell us crap bikes that don't work right. Atleast in a car if you break down in the middle of the road you can stop safely. On a bike if something happens to you in traffic you could be killed. It's just not on. Rant finished.

[Ste]

Is it just me that is missing the part where the bike shops intention was to rip you off?

Its a £700 old two stroke bike which isn't going to be perfect and two stroke do need reboring ever so often. It was sold four weeks ago and has been used in that time so its not like it died on your way home from the shop. As Mr Jamez said they could just say that you've not been running it correctly and so its your fault. Have you warmed it up correctly and has it had two stroke oil in?

Why should they rebuild it or give you a full refund unless it was sold with any type of warrenty?

[cagiva gezzer]

Its an old two stroke, you've got half a leg to stand on. Check the small print of the receipt to see what it says. Most warranties exculde two stroke components as they're so fickle.

You should of found out when the last rebuild was and used that as an barganing tool when buying.

Two strokes seize and i doubt they sold you the bike knowing it was going to seize. Its highly likely that the knew it might seize, but its down to you as a buyer to make an informed decision when buying.

How many miles has it done?

(sorry for being harsh, but thats the way i see it)
____________________
"because one stroke isnt enough and four strokes waste two"

[JonT]

I kept it topped up on everything and treated it well so I've not done anything to cause it this damage, i've only done 160 miles on it since i've been away at uni a lot up until easter.

With or without warranty the bike was not fit the purpose if it breaks down so soon. I know its a two stroke and that they require a rebuild every now and then but I think its rediculous that I buy a bike for £700 use it 5 times and then have to spend over £200 in repairs.

[cagiva gezzer]

[JonT]

The total milleage on the bike is now 13676 miles.

[Ste]

When was it last rebuilt?

[JonT]

I don't know when it was last rebuilt. I had a friend with me who asked questions like that as I am new to bikes but I've just asked him and he can't remember what they said.

[Ste]

Have a look through the paperwork you got with the bike.

If you've got no record of when they say it was last rebuilt then you're up shit creek without a paddle.

[JonT]

I am thinking of sending this to them via email and post...

[cagiva gezzer]

Not formal enough and the bit about

[JonT]

Good points, i'll update it with your suggestions for bits that need removing.

[cagiva gezzer]

Your best bet would be asking them to strip it down and see what went wrong at no charge to youself. Then suppy the parts at trade cost and fit for free.

You're asking alot to have a engine rebuild done for free on a (6th????) hand stroker.

If you do want to send a letter, cut out all the rubbish.

[JonT]

It's not because im awkward or feel that I have to enforce my rights its simply because I can't afford to get a rechrome and new piston fitted at the price a garage will charge me.

The most I could put towards repairs without jeapordizing other financial obligations would be about £70.

So if I could word it somehow as to request them to put it right for that much that would be absolutely fine with me also.

[Kickstart]

Hi

Under consumer law I think the shop must repair / refund for the bike except under certain circumstances (basically if they sold it for spare parts) irrespective of any warrenty they have given or any restrictions on that warrenty.

If it was an old 2 stroke which was on its last legs then they should not have sold it. By selling it they have accepted the liability for it.

Do not do any work to it yourself. Doing so is only going to give them an excuse to get out of any liability. I would be dubious about admitting to doing a compression check.

You cannot rebore the engine and 65psi is very low compression (I would expect around double that). It is possible that it was seizing up, but if so I would expect it to have come to a halt a fair bit more violently than how you describe. Personal guess is that it has snapped a ring. If the bore is not scored then you do not need to rebore it. They can wear but this is not really a problem on plated bores compared to steel bores.

All the best

Keith
____________________
Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[JonT]

If it is just a snapped ring then that doesn't sound too expensive, how would I be able to check for sure if thats all it is before I send anything to the bike shop?

Keep in mind I myself have little experience in mechanics but a relative who has been a car mechanic for 40 years could probably understand some instructions if you know how its done.

PS when it came to a stop it was very gentle, it first slowed down to 30 and then after half a minute it slowed down to stopped, a similar kind of feeling as if it had run out of fuel.

[Ste]

With that letter be more accurate with it, remove all the "roughly a month ago", "not even done 160 miles", "I was wondering", "about 12 days". Remove all those type of things and replace them with the actual facts like when you bought the bike, however many miles you've actually done and rather than wondering what they could do aren't you writing to them to request them to fix it in full at no cost to yourself or refund your purchase?

Also get rid of the whole "a friend told me" type stuff, just tell them what the conpression test showed and that you found dirt in the petrol tank (not that they'll care or be suprised about there being dirt in and old bikes petrol tank). Definately get ride of your friends diagnosis. You don't want to be telling them about you and your mates having a look at it, you did a compression test and thats it.

What was the purpose of the bike, was it sold as? I really can't see them saying "yeah mate, this bike is just what you need, it won't need any maintenance doing for ages and it was rebuilt yesturday" I'd expect that it was sold more as a £700 old two stroke.

It would be very useful if you can put in your letter when they claim it was last rebuilt as that is the critical point; if they sold it as not needing a rebuild for ages as it had just been done then you do have some come back. If it was sold as something which was rebuilt ages ago (which I suspect is the case) then good luck to you. Have a look through any paperwork you got with the bike to find this out as without knowing that then it's not worth the 28p for a stamp to send that letter.

Rather than telling them what you'd legally be within your rights to do but only want them to do XYZ as you're such a nice guy just explain very clearly what you want them to do and why they should do it. Don't tell them how you'd be perfectly happy if they did something, just tell them what you want them to do.

[JonT]

Ok i've stripped it down to the bear essentials to make it easier to build the letter up again without all the crap in it. Here is what I have to work with.

[Ste]

Dear Sir,

Re: Suzuki Wolf RG125 A123 BCD

I purchased this bike on xx/xx/xx from youselfs. Since then I have done xyz.xx miles.

On the 16th of March I was riding [to where-ever] and it broke down, it slowed and came to a halt in the same way a bike which has run out of petrol would.

I had the bike recovered from the roadside as it was unable to be riden.

A compression test was performed and it was found that it only had about 65psi of compression. There was also excess dirt in the fuel tank.

This vehicle is not fit for purpose as described in the Sales of Goods Act 1979, when I bought it I was told that it was last rebuilt abc miles ago on the XX/XX/XX and so was not expecting it to be needing reboring after only xyz miles. I am therefore asking that you repair the bike at no further cost to myself.

I look foward from hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

Joe Bloggs

You really do need to find out when it was last rebuilt as if they turn around to you and say "we did tell you it would need rebuilding shortly" what are you going to say?

[Kickstart]

[Ste]