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Diggs
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PostPosted: 08:42 - 21 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading that, I can see a flaw. It doesn't cater for the likes of me, i.e.:

'I don't believe in the existence of a God in the traditionally accepted form of a divine individual, but accept that there may be forces out there that cannot be explained by contemporary physics, maths and our concept of time'.

I'd like to think that still makes me an agnostic, but not one defined by Hitchens and Dawkins.
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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 09:18 - 21 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

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MarJay
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PostPosted: 09:21 - 21 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggs wrote:
Reading that, I can see a flaw. It doesn't cater for the likes of me, i.e.:

'I don't believe in the existence of a God in the traditionally accepted form of a divine individual, but accept that there may be forces out there that cannot be explained by contemporary physics, maths and our concept of time'.

I'd like to think that still makes me an agnostic, but not one defined by Hitchens and Dawkins.


Well... Richard Dawkins is not my favourite person. As I said I was more swayed by Stephen Hawking than anyone. And what he's saying relates specifically to 'God' with a capital G. It does equally apply to fairies, unicorns, polytheistic deities, whatever but I take your point.

There is tonnes of stuff out there we can't explain, so why can't we just be allowed to feel thankful for that? Thankful for existence? We don't need a being to thank for that, or a force, or a creator.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 09:33 - 21 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:


There is tonnes of stuff out there we can't explain, so why can't we just be allowed to feel thankful for that? Thankful for existence? We don't need a being to thank for that, or a force, or a creator.


I completely agree.
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Bubbs
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PostPosted: 11:14 - 21 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
There is tonnes of stuff out there we can't explain, so why can't we just be allowed to feel thankful for that? Thankful for existence? We don't need a being to thank for that, or a force, or a creator.


I agree, following a set religion is absolutely bonkers in my opinion. Thanking/worshipping a version of god that was written 1000's of years ago is retarded. It wasn't long ago that women (and men) were killed for witchcraft (1600's) ... people are fucking crazy. Just think what they were like 2000+ years ago. The bible is made up of carefully selected stories, there were many scrolls that were ignored that didn't vibe with the curators/editors.. the dead sea scrolls being one of them.

So the version we get is heavily edited and redacted, and translated from Aramaic to Latin to English... I've read that there are words used in those languages that don't even exist in English. How the fuck can you take this book seriously.

I'm thankful that I exist. Just think of all the millions/billions of individual sperms i've shot, and wiped off with a tissue. I'm sure my old man did the same, the odds are astronimical even at that level that I actually made it. However when you look at things like what's beyond the universe, or what's before the big bang... or even going down to micro/nano level and seeing that we are mostly made up of empty space and are really just a collection of vibrating atoms that somehow combine to make one big concious being... how the actual fuck. It's beyond comprehension...

So whatever force it is that (could) govern this all, I'm not worshipping it and thinking there's some heaven I'll go to once I die, but I do acknowledge the fact that there could be something more and not close my mind off to that possibility.

There's some shit in this world that happens quite often I can't get my head around. When being overtaken or overtaking someone you can feel when someone is looking at you. Or you could be looking at someone else and they can feel you looking and turn their head... that's a bit weird. Also I've had a number of experiences where I feel like I'm going to bump into a particular person and it happens. I met a friend once who I did worked with as a holiday rep and my wife and I decided to try and guess what car he drove and I had a specific image in my head of a 2004 ford fiesta in maroon... that was the exact car that turned up. Coincidence I guess but it's still bonkers.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:57 - 21 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the way these answers are going today Smile
I don't particularly like Dawkins myself. There's this thing called "militant atheism" these days, and it seems to me like a set of people who are as bad in their way as some of the religious fundamentalists (Hitchens otoh was a great debater - a lesson on how to argue your point, and a joy to watch in action - it's not just on this subject that I enjoy reading/watching him). I don't want to preach my atheism with the aim of converting people. If you believe in a "traditional" god, that's fine with me as long as what you do with your belief isn't harmful to others. I see that in many cases, such beliefs actually seem to make people better than they might otherwise be, and that seems ok. You might worry, as Sam Harris does, that without their belief as a guide, they'd be out there raping and pillaging, but as long as they don't... Laughing

I don't particularly want to wear my atheism as a badge or label to flaunt. The point of the current argument to me is to try to calm the fundamentalists who bring so much harm to the world through terrorism and even milder forms of the control of free thought. Even where they form only a small proportion of a society, as we have seen, they can cause immense damage, especially where they gain any kind of political power or influence. A firm dividing line between religion and politics is what I would like to see.

Jordan Peterson is another one who interests me on this subject. Now, as far as I can tell, he does believe in a Christian god - not sure, he never seems to state it explicitly. What he does say is he acts as if God exists. Now, not even that is why I like some of what he says on the subject. What I like is how he looks at the psychology behind the stories in various deity myths. He takes these stories and looks at their practical implications for society, individuals and everyday life, both in their early days and how they might be interpreted in a useful way now. I don't see any harm, and in fact can see how people can draw some good lessons on morality and behaviour etc this way.

But like "god", I think atheism requires some definition as it is perceived by different people. To me, it has always felt like a rejection of religion, not necessarily a god - of sorts. But I could quite happily manage without the term "god" altogether, and just agree with Bubbs and Diggs that there are unexplained things in this universe that we find the manifestations of rather strange. I'm sure if such things are ever understood, we will call it science. That doesn't take away from the beauty and awesomeness of it all. Words to express how we feel about it all are where we often fail.

Perhaps "God" is just those things we haven't been able to explain yet.
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 14:16 - 21 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

BusterGonads wrote:
Here'smy two pennyworth.

As a kid I was brought up in a religious household. I have a good grasp of biblical theology and was a believer by upbringing until my late teens. Then I got into cosmology and began to realise the scale of the universe; the vast distance between stars and the countless numbers of them that there are. Just to make an analogy. The sun our local star is about 800,000 miles across its face, as it were. It is almost a hundred million miles from us. If we want to understand how far it is to the next star, let's shrink it to the size of a grain of salt and put it on a big six foot table, right in the middle. The Earth in this model is microscopic and if we go to the edge of the table, that is how far it is to where the 1979 Voyager space ship has gone since 1979. It has been going at ten miles a second which is so fast we would never even see it as it passed. So it's taken forty years to get to the edge of the table at at ten miles a second. Where is the next star in our model....? Seven miles away. Now that's the nearest star and the rest are unbelievable distances away.

Our galaxy has two hundred thousand million stars. The next nearest galaxy to ours is two point five million light years away. To get a grasp of that, we see it as it was two and a half million years ago - and that is the nearest galaxy. The sky is full of galaxies and many of them are billions of light years away. If you look through a straw at any part of the sky, that field of view will contain millions of galaxies and all of them have hundreds of billions of stars - all vast distances apart and all these galaxies, hundreds of millions of light years away and some of them are billions of light years away.

So - this is why I can't believe in a God creator. The scale of even our own galaxy with its 200,000,000,000 stars is so immense, I can not conceive of a creator god - and that is only our own galaxy. When we look at the numbers of other galaxies there are, and the vast vast distances they are apart - a Bible of Bronze Age / Iron Age stories describing a God that makes the universe and creates creatures on the Earth just doesn't work for me. Sad in a way, but there it is.


https://www.facebook.com/CollectiveEvolutionPage/videos/10154629625863908/
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BusterGonads
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PostPosted: 17:48 - 21 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:


Brilliant video that was bhinso. Says it all. Like the old saying says - one video saves many words.

No old man with a beard made that lot and whatever did ain't interested in me.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:49 - 21 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:


Well... Richard Dawkins is not my favourite person. As I said I was more swayed by Stephen Hawking than anyone. And what he's saying relates specifically to 'God' with a capital G. It does equally apply to...UNICORNS


But, but, but...Brexit! Laughing

Quote:
There is tonnes of stuff out there we can't explain


Your use of the metric is interesting, but, we'll be putting a stop to all that nonsense when we're out of the EU! Laughing
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 22:47 - 21 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
MarJay wrote:



There is tonnes of stuff out there we can't explain


Your use of the metric is interesting, but, we'll be putting a stop to all that nonsense when we're out of the EU! Laughing


Fun fact: US is staunchly imperial measurements, unless you are in the medical trade or, bizarrely enough, selling dope on the streets. Question
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 23:41 - 21 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

mentalboy wrote:


Fun fact: US is staunchly imperial measurements, unless you are in the medical trade or, bizarrely enough, selling dope on the streets. Question


Well, obviously all we need to know if we actually do leave the EU is what units of measure does the US use for the weight of chlorinated chickens.
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 00:30 - 22 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
mentalboy wrote:


Fun fact: US is staunchly imperial measurements, unless you are in the medical trade or, bizarrely enough, selling dope on the streets. Question


Well, obviously all we need to know if we actually do leave the EU is what units of measure does the US use for the weight of chlorinated chickens.


I'd be more concerned about what they are feeding them/pumping them full of in order to get the size breast fillets they do, they are always huge. Chicken is nasty shit anyway, there's a good reason they call it fowl.
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 00:33 - 22 Aug 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
mentalboy wrote:


Fun fact: US is staunchly imperial measurements, unless you are in the medical trade or, bizarrely enough, selling dope on the streets. Question


Well, obviously all we need to know if we actually do leave the EU is what units of measure does the US use for the weight of chlorinated chickens.


I'd be more concerned about what they are feeding them/pumping them full of in order to get the size breast fillets they do, they are always huge. Chicken is nasty shit anyway, there's a good reason they call it fowl. Laughing
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