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Moped won’t start without throttle

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kekezy
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 08 Nov 2019
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PostPosted: 15:23 - 08 Nov 2019    Post subject: Moped won’t start without throttle Reply with quote

I bought a piaggo nrg 50 2 days ago, this is my first moped i’ve ever owned. So my problem is i turn key, hold brake and press electric start and it just won’t start until i give it some throttle then usually after 2 attempts it starts running.

Any suggestions on anything i can do to resolve this ? Any help would be appreciated


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I literally know nothing about the mechanics of mopeds but i want to learn.
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WreckTangle
Two Stroke Sniffer



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PostPosted: 16:04 - 08 Nov 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

on the side of the bike is there a thing that looks like a long handle, (it's something like a kickstart) you can put your foot on it and kick the bike in to life?

sounds like bike might need a new battery otherwise Confused
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 16:09 - 08 Nov 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should really be in the workshop thread...

Anyhoo, it turns over but won't start normal, needs some "finesse" with the throttle Thinking

Couple of questions: how is it once it's warmed up a bit? Did you buy this new or second-hand? If second hand do you think the previous owner might have, to use the technical term, fucked with it?

The reason I say this is I experimented (purely for fun) with "racing" CDIs on scooters and most of them are wank and mess up the ignition timing (e.g. take from the bottom to give to the top) and one such CDI made my scooter barely able to start.
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kekezy
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PostPosted: 17:08 - 08 Nov 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

WreckTangle wrote:
on the side of the bike is there a thing that looks like a long handle, (it's something like a kickstart) you can put your foot on it and kick the bike in to life?

sounds like bike might need a new battery otherwise Confused



yeah it starts via kick start but ideally would want it to start normally
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kekezy
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PostPosted: 17:18 - 08 Nov 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
Should really be in the workshop thread...

Anyhoo, it turns over but won't start normal, needs some "finesse" with the throttle Thinking

Couple of questions: how is it once it's warmed up a bit? Did you buy this new or second-hand? If second hand do you think the previous owner might have, to use the technical term, fucked with it?

The reason I say this is I experimented (purely for fun) with "racing" CDIs on scooters and most of them are wank and mess up the ignition timing (e.g. take from the bottom to give to the top) and one such CDI made my scooter barely able to start.


sorry first time here and this thread was the first i saw.
it has cut out a few times while idle running.
bought second hand previous owner “claims” he’s done nothing to it but obviously i’m not experienced enough in this field to know/check if he has.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 19:29 - 08 Nov 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it kicks okay then worth checking the battery voltage. Buy/beg/borrow/steal a multimeter Smile
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Ice Burger
Borekit Bruiser



Joined: 21 Apr 2019
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PostPosted: 00:04 - 13 Nov 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd just leave it alone mate, that sounds perfectly reasonable since the weather is getting colder now. There's no choke cable to go along with the cold start so a little throttle is probably the right thing to do.

I actually use the exact same technique for my scooter in the morning Thumbs Up
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Fizzoid
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PostPosted: 10:33 - 13 Nov 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine's doing a similar thing to yours. For me, the battery is on the way out

Is yours running fine once warmed up?
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 12:00 - 13 Nov 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

The battery is converting chemical potential energy into electrical energy. the chemistry is that when the temperature is colder, like around now, the rate-of-reaction slows down. So, your cold battery might have enough energy in it to wamp the engine over... it dont get out the vat fast enough.

This 'problem' is common on all sort of vehicles, but usually shows up around autumn when a 'tired' battery starts to struggle to turn over a probably rather tired engine.

Answer is 'probably' that you need a new battery. And pay heed to the pre-use instructions to fill it with nice new acid, and to correctly 'trickle-charge' the battery, once filled. Leave it an hour or so to 'settle', then check the electrolyte/acid level again, and top is necessary, and charge some more to put electric in that 'new' electrolyte. Check again when charged, and repeat if necessary, THEN fit to the bike.

And pay heed; little scooters dont have big charging systems or big batteries. It should only take a second or so's prod on the starter for the engine to catch.... if it dont, that implies, that either there is something else wrong with the bike..... like it needs servicing, and/or you are doing something daft, like flooding it wamping the throttle as you press the starter button.

A new spark-plug would be a wise investment here. As would the apropriate Haynes (Service) Manual for it. This tells you what normal service operations 'should' (be but probably never have!) been done. BUT as you know nuffink about mechanics and have a ped and presumeably a will to do a little learning... this IS your guide to save having to ask too many stoopid questions. Other than PAGE WHAT!?! which we all ask when we get to the 'referral' in the Haynes where it a says "See Page "

But... if the kicker works... use the kicker!!!

There is a tendancy on little bikes, to over use the electric start, which as said isn't on a particularly generouse electrical system to start with; consequently, the battery gets sucked dry of charge, ever five minutes when owner prods the button, outside the chippy or whatever, doing 'short' hops with lots of stops and starts for the few miles the thing does, a-n-d the engine never runs for long enouh or hard enough to spin the generator hard enough, fast enough or lomg enough to put back into the battery the electric the starter motor took out.

Such repetitive and heavy use is known as deep-cycle-discharge, and not only do you never get a fully charged battery, the engine never quite making as much electric as the starter and lights and any other electrical guff attached takes out; b-u-t the stress on the battery is high and it tends to make the acid/electrolyte start to break down, and it can harden the lead plates inside, so the battery starts to loose the capacity to hold even the amount of electric it is designed to...

Which is why I say just get a new one, and be wary of such 'abuse' using the kicker where possible, to give it an easier time.

The battery 'may' not be so bad, and may be recoverable; if it's just deeply un-charged, a good trickle charge may bring it back to life; some new acid or even just being topped up with distilled water can help... B-U-T these things are rarely ultra expensive, like maybe £20 or so, and you will need a new one sooner or later, may as well cut to the chase and save the polava.

TRICKLE CHARGE.. I have said that a couple of times. Your battery is probably rated at something like 8Ah or 8 Amp-Houtrs. This is the nominal amount of charge the battery may hold, and is given in a non SI form, Amp-Hours, which signifies how many amps the battery may supply, for however long. Great 'theory' but in practice it don't work like that, A-n-d, as said under starting conditions you have this 'Deep-Cycle-Discharge' thing where the number of amps coming out is a LOT higher than the nominal, maybe 8A suggested on the box.

The starter motor will likely draw something in the order of 80Amps, so in 'theory' an 8 Amp Hour battery should have enough electric in it to keep that spinning for 1/10th of an hour or 6 minutes.... only it dont! As the starter draws amps, the electric in the electrolyte, rushed to the terminals of the battery, in it's hurry to get our, and after a few seconds the electrons get into a traffic jam, and current slowed down, and the terminal voltage drops, and the battery effectively 'goes flat' The electrolyte starts to break down, the lead plates start to go hard, and you battery is getting fcuked.... And in practice your 8 amps-for-an-hour battery, wil only supply 80 Amps to the starter, not for 6 minutes, but just 3, IF the battery is in decent enough nick to start with...

Conversely, is you hook a diddy little bike or scooter battery up to a more usual 'car' type battery charger; this bangs out probably 8-Amps. A car alternator if you charge off the car in a 'jump' even more, and its 'like' Deep-Cycle-Discharge, but going the other way, in, rather than 'out' and can equally easily kill even a brand new battery.

Especially a little one, like wots fitted to peds or antique Ducatis... which is another story, B-U-T also worth a check that you are using an appropriate VOLTAGE charger... many bikes, like antique Ducatis, have a 6v electrical system, and a 12v car battery charger, or 24v 'commercial' verhicle battery charger WILL fry them in a few moments.... believe me.. and the antique Ducati owner!

A trickle-charger then supplies around 1/4 to 1/2 the 'nominal' amps the battery is rated to deliver, so as to NOT cook the fluid or warp the lead plates inside. And many chargers will have a switch to set the maximum ampage rate, maybe 1, 2, or 4, to avoid cooking a typical car size battery,l but even that is probably 5-10x the capacity of the diddy little things they fit to bikes and peds.. be warned"

Pay heed, DONT over use the electric starter IF you can help it. If the engine doesn't catch in a few, like maybe five or ten seconds.. STOP. Give the battery a chance to settle and that electron-jam a chance to clear.. then 30 seconds later try again. IF it still wont play ball.. assuming a good battery... look at the engine, and start with a new spark-plug! Because something aint right, and it should catch, even in our colder weather.. I was going to say 'winter' but no, this be Britain, its never particularly warm... so get used! lol.
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The Artist
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PostPosted: 14:29 - 13 Nov 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a typo in there Teflon.... Laughing
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 14:40 - 13 Nov 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Artist wrote:
There is a typo in there Teflon.... Laughing


Yep, I see it too.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 17:13 - 13 Nov 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

tl;dr batteries and charging systems on scooters are shit Smile

I noticed this when rebuilding the turd scooter: the carb was all full of crap and I easily flattened a brand new, fully charged battery trying to get it to start.

To be fair the kicker on even a 50cc scooter isn't great compared to a "proper" bike. And what's the point of "twist and go" if it starts with "stop and kick" Very Happy
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