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Another test day drama - debate about front brake lever

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A2WillDo
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PostPosted: 23:41 - 06 Mar 2020    Post subject: Another test day drama - debate about front brake lever Reply with quote

I've got a feeling this topic is going to get a little controversial.. but all opinions/advice is welcome.

So I'm getting a bit frustrated now about the hassle I've had just trying to get my mod 1 and 2 tests done, and I'm only trying to get an A1 licence Shocked (there's many reasons I'm doing the A1 licence, I'll do the A2 licence later). The background to this is, I've done (at least paid and turned up for) the mod 1 4 times. 1st time my whole wallet (including license) had managed to fall out of my pocket on the way to the test centre, first time this had ever happened in several years of riding. 2nd time was during a storm, heavy rain, I very temporarily locked the rear brake on emergency stop.. 3rd time was early morning and snowing the night before (test centre was fine apparently but I have to travel over 20 miles through country lanes, and sat nav took me about 15 minutes past the test centre.. they never answer the phone, ended up getting there 10 mins late, to be told it was too late). 4th time despite the snow, passed with 0 faults). So 160 miles and about 8 hours of riding just to and from mod 1.

Then the fun begins.. So I had the mod 2 test booked for today. Got there in plenty of time. They came out to see me about 10 minutes late, which is somehow fine for them, but anyway I was fine with that. Get to my bike and the maintenance questions I was asked "how would you check if your front brake is working correctly", so I showed them which was fine. However the examiner noticed the brake lever was going almost all the way back to the handlebars. The bike has always been like this since I've had it, the brakes work perfectly, they're not spongy, they've been bled and there's plenty of material on the pads. It's not that the brakes don't engage until the lever is almost all the way back, but if you pull hard you can squeeze it all the way back, but way before then the brakes are already fully on. The examiner clearly wasn't sure what the position was on this so he went to ask a colleague/riding instructor (I'm not sure who he was, but apparently he was also a bike MOT tester.. and a former traffic cop.. it just gets better doesn't it lol). The 'former traffic cop' applied the brakes without pulling fully back the lever and the bike wouldn't budge, forks compressing nicely. He also wasn't exactly sure. I assured them the bike has never had an issue with an MOT and they can see the brakes are working fine. It ended up with the examiner telling me it shouldn't be like that and it's an MOT failure (didn't realise I was attending an MOT test and he was an MOT mechanic too but at least they didn't charge me for the MOT Very Happy ) probably as he wanted to air on the side of caution, which again I'm not sure I can blame him for being over cautious, but what I have a real issue with is that they want to charge me yet another £75 to re book... whilst I can see why he might want to be cautious, he's also costing me another day off work and the real kick in the balls is that after all this hassle my CBT will have ran out before I can get in for another retest, now whilst if there was something undoubtedly wrong with the bike then I'd just have to deal with that, but there isn't and all this additional hassle and cost is purely based on his own opinion. I had the same examiner for the mod 1 test last week and had no issues with the emergency stop on the same bike!

I've found this on gov.uk
"A motorcycle must only be failed for insufficient reserve travel if the brake lever is touching the handlebar or the brake pedal is fouling another part of the motorcycle. Motorcycles with servo-assisted braking systems should be checked with the engine running.

On some motorcycles it may be possible to pull the brake lever back until it touches the handlebar. In such cases the extent of reserve travel should be assessed during the brake test."

Does anyone have any practical advice on this? I'm going to complain through the DVSA customer services but from my experience so far I can't see them being of any help.

Any advice is greatly appreciated, even if it's just to help me see the funny side of this, if there is one!!
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 01:15 - 07 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not entirely sure from this tale WHAT exactly you did or may have failed on......

You were asked to show him pre-ride checks and how you would check the braked... purportedly you did.... and you he and the MOT man made brakes work... only possible gripe I can see is that he stil wasn't happy you had a road-worthy vehicle, and could have 'terminated' the exam.. ie you didn't get to do it rather than 'failed' it.

That is in the discretion of an examiner IF they feel your bike is not up to scratch.... so hint for next time... make bludy sure it IS!!! And maybe, when asked to show how you you test the brakes... don't pull the lever so hard!

I have hands like dinner shovels, and as a kid did a milk round running up and down garden paths with slippy wet milk bottles twixt my fingers... VERY easy for me to pull the lever all the way back to the bars on many bikes, well past the point the brake is locking a wheel..

Hint here is you dont have tyo be that heavy handed, be a bit gentle and develop the 'feel' for the brake not just when testing, but when braking... you don't want to lock the front wheel in a panic e-stop do you?

Otherwise take it on the chin.... chit happens, and when it comes to driving tests, read between the lines.

In my day the test wasn't as tick box regimented as today, and the first hurdle was weather the examiner, usually an ex-Brigadier type in tweeds with corderoy trousers and bottle bottom glasses assessed his bald spot in the polish on your boots... and you could be failed for in my case something as irreverent as unruly red hair... ([Full Monty Pythin mode]"bludy gingers! Eye ATE'em! Would have won the war in a day but for the bludy Gingers!")

These days they have a tick-list and much less room to wheedle out on anything. So what, may have got the examiners back up?

(Apart from having to go out in the cold to deal with a leather-clad loon that wants a bludy motorbike licence in the middle of winter!!!! The idiot!)

Did you show confidence? Did you dither when asked for paperwork? Did you stutter when asked to read a car number-plate at fifty paces? WHAT might have given the chap pause for thought and cause to think you couldn't cut it before you even began?

Odds is that 2nd time around, you'll be a lot more familiar with it all, and pass muster, even if you cant pin-point any anomaly...

So just chalk it up as one of them things.... go back to the bike and do all the routine maintenence you have been putting off, and set the controls up as best... and have another go.

As to setting up the brake lever? Only hint I can offer, apart from checking and changing the brake fluid,is that on disc braked bikes, over the years, especially tiddlers that don't usually have span adjustable levers, I 'have' resorted to putting oenny washers on the end of the master cylinder piston, to push the lever out a little further and take up earlier, or ground down spare lever 'cams'so they piusk up later... esp for diddy mitt O/H sat over there... but that is another matter, and as said probably unnecessary IF the brakes work and work properly, you just need to be a tad less heavy handed!

But go do that maintenance, make bike nice and clean before test, and think parading before Brigadier.. keep answers short and concise, be polite and dont offer any opportunity for them to use the little discretion they have.

Best of luck next time... and remember.. its a damn site cheaper to be doing this in your own bike for £75 a pop, than on a school bike, wioth an instructor sat in the waiting room sipping cartridge coffee at £3oo a day day rate!

Carry on.. take it on the chin, its all learning, and give it another go.... after you have repeated CBT... I mean you only had two years before that ran out, so WHY have you left it this long to take tests?!?
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 01:19 - 07 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have twin 6-pot pretec callipers on my VFR750 and it is possible to pull the lever all the way back to the bar... By the time you have done that, it would take the gravitational pull of a small moon to make the wheel turn and has probably made the steel inthe disc change-phase through compression. It lockes the wheel with 1/8" of pull.

The testing regs are clear and unambiguious. As you stated:

"On some motorcycles it may be possible to pull the brake lever back until it touches the handlebar. In such cases the extent of reserve travel should be assessed during the brake test.". That kis chapter and verse.

Unofficially, if it locks out the roller brake test, it is always a pass. You cannot assess brake efficiency at the side of the road... Even if you are an ex traffic cop with his dick hanging out of his leathers in an attemopt to impress learner riders with his length and girth.
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CorriganJ
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PostPosted: 09:43 - 07 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sucks. As your CBT is now expired, will you need to do your theory and Mod 1 again now as well? They expire with the CBT right?
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Evil Hans
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PostPosted: 10:19 - 07 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

CorriganJ wrote:
That sucks. As your CBT is now expired, will you need to do your theory and Mod 1 again now as well? They expire with the CBT right?


Wrong.
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A2WillDo
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PostPosted: 14:39 - 07 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all, thanks for the advice.

@ Teflon-Mike - Yes that's what happened, I didn't get to do the test rather than failing it. The examiner deemed the bike not roadworthy based on the single fact that the brake lever comes too far back for his liking. Although strangely he didn't advise me not to ride it home over 20 miles that he knew I'd travelled, it seemed he was literally in 2 minds as to proceed with the test or not. A good 5 minutes or more of debate about it..

To clarify I was confident and well prepared when handing over paperwork etc. Of course I'm probably biased but I wasn't cockey/arrogant or lacking confidence in any way (or giving the examiner any excuse to have any gripe with me at all, why would I? that doesn't sound like a very good strategy for passing the test). As much as a royal pain in the a$$ this is, I know I can't do anything besides just get on with it and do it again and make sure I'm well prepared as is the bike. The point of my gripe is that having to take yet another day off work and complete another CBT is enough of a pain in the a$$ as it is, for what? why? what reason? what benefit? who's benefit? although I realise (but obviously don't like) I will have to do this even though I shouldn't, but on top of this the DVSA want to charge me another £75 - it's just not right, in my opinion they should be compensating me for the out of pocket expenses I've had to incur because of their own misunderstanding of motorcycle braking systems and MOT/road worthiness rules. I'm about to email them my complaint - I'll be offering to take the bike into a DVSA centre where they can test themselves.

@ stinkwheel - yeah exactly! seems we think alike!

@ CorriganJ - No, thankfully not as Evil Hans has said. My mod 1 and theory are still fine until they each expire (2 years I think in this case)

I just think this is a 2 way street, I've complied with everything I was expected to, the DVSA however would have a hard time to say the same in my view.

Thanks all
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 15:37 - 07 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why? What do you hope to achieve? Its a ball-ache, but that's life.
There's many many reasons you would have had to walk away without a pass cert, this is just one of them. Yup.. bit jobsworth pedantic and peculiar, but that be bikes... take it on the chin.
Reason for examiner terminating are manifest, and covering his own arse... an ass btw is a kind of mule, an if arse with an 'R' is good enough for William Shakespeare, I don't see why we need to hide from the spam-bots with Americanisms and dollar signs.. there, that's MY rant.. back to bikes, where were we?
Oh yea, terminated. Jobsworth; examiner, IF you had locked up an e-stop on the road, first question to him would be '"Did you get him to check the brakes before you went?" and having done the brake test and passed comment on lever travel, he'd be on the back foot.... plus he might have thought it a bit cold that day.. who knows, chalk it up and move on.
EoD check the small print, examiner has the discretion to 'terminate' for many reassons, not liking the your hair cut or lever travel just a couple of them, and you are gambling from the off on getting a 'pass', this just be one of the risks... if you cant afford to loose test fee plus a day off work for the test... pay the surcharge and book it on a Saturday instead... its all pays your money and takes your chanes and YOU that wants a full M/C licence, not the examiners duty to give it to you just cos you have filled n a form....
Take it on the chin, chalk it up to experience, and MOVE ON, you are just churning your guts with sour grapes, and little prospect of getting anything changed, so keep your eye on the ball and re-book.
Its NOT the end of the world, you are no less qualified now than when you started, you aren't bleeding, so, shrug it off and get on with what needs to be got on with.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 17:38 - 07 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best you could hope for if the DVSA accepts your complaint is a free re-test, or a refund on the test fee. For that to happen, I expect that they would have to write to the test centre and confirm whether your story about being refused the test on account of the right brake lever is true. They would also have to confirm that the examiner was in error on that point. As he had gone to consult with a more knowledgable colleague, he has successfully covered his back. As for that colleague, he may well tell the DVSA that in his professional opinion, the bike was unsafe with the front brake in that condition, or he could just say he was wrong.

In either case, there are probably only a couple of bike examiners at the test centre you attended, and they will now remember you clearly, and probably will take umbrage at having a complaint logged against them, regardless of whether the complaint had merit. Human nature being what it is, it's probably better to not be remembered for kicking up a fuss with people who will have to judge your riding fairly and objectively again in the near future.

Here's a suggestion. Don't bother with the complaint. Just check again that that brake really is bled properly. If it is, then take it around to a bike mechanic and get another opinion. If he can't get it to stiffen up, research the bike and get some evidence on your side to support that the lever travel is normally all the way down to the bar. Print it out. Then take that evidence, plus the rules re: MOT rules and bike roadworthiness, and go back to the test centre and tell those examiners what you've done, the information you've gathered, and "ask" whether it's worth booking another test. They will probably say yes, and you can then book another test without the risk of prejudicing your chances.
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F18
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PostPosted: 18:41 - 07 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

The brake lever travel issue may seem pedantic but surely the whole purpose of these mod tests is to teach and then test safety and ability.

Whilst I wouldn't present a bike to an MOT station with excessive travel or travel nearly to the bar grip, the actual MOT rules are clearly written up. Plus, a (different) roadside copper should apply C&U regulations (I don't know where such travel comes into those) and could deem it unroadworthy - but it's no good quoting MOT rules then.

So, I think (if you were asking) you have been hard done to; but you also ought to sort out your bike. i.e. why is the lever able to come so far back (have you worn hoses, cr*p fluid, air in it?).

Believe me, when you really, really need your brakes you do not want to meet your handlebars.
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CorriganJ
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PostPosted: 19:26 - 07 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evil Hans wrote:
CorriganJ wrote:
That sucks. As your CBT is now expired, will you need to do your theory and Mod 1 again now as well? They expire with the CBT right?


Wrong.


Thank god for that
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 19:50 - 07 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

F18 wrote:
The brake lever travel issue may seem pedantic but surely the whole purpose of these mod tests is to teach and then test safety and ability.

Whilst I wouldn't present a bike to an MOT station with excessive travel or travel nearly to the bar grip, the actual MOT rules are clearly written up. Plus, a (different) roadside copper should apply C&U regulations (I don't know where such travel comes into those) and could deem it unroadworthy - but it's no good quoting MOT rules then.

So, I think (if you were asking) you have been hard done to; but you also ought to sort out your bike. i.e. why is the lever able to come so far back (have you worn hoses, cr*p fluid, air in it?).

Believe me, when you really, really need your brakes you do not want to meet your handlebars.


A roadside copper has no authority to test your bike unless he/she either considers it to be defective (in which case I'd ask them exactly what he/she considers to be defective, no fishing with me) or it is clearly been in an accident.

The road traffic act then requires that they make an appointment to test it.


If you get stopped by the filth and they ask to examine stuff you're opening gambit is ' so what do you think is defective and why'
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 19:57 - 07 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

F18 wrote:
The brake lever travel issue may seem pedantic but surely the whole purpose of these mod tests is to teach and then test safety and ability.

Whilst I wouldn't present a bike to an MOT station with excessive travel or travel nearly to the bar grip, the actual MOT rules are clearly written up. Plus, a (different) roadside copper should apply C&U regulations (I don't know where such travel comes into those) and could deem it unroadworthy - but it's no good quoting MOT rules then.

So, I think (if you were asking) you have been hard done to; but you also ought to sort out your bike. i.e. why is the lever able to come so far back (have you worn hoses, cr*p fluid, air in it?).

Believe me, when you really, really need your brakes you do not want to meet your handlebars.


I suppose the first thing to establish is if the lever coming back to the bars is normal or not before jumping in getting all self-riteous. On some bikes, you can pull the lever to the bars as standard which is why there is that phrase in the MOT manual.

As I say, if I pull hard enough, I can get the lever on my bike back to the bars. The Grimeca brakes they fitted to the last generation of big MZ singles could also be pulled back to the bar with two fingers. You would never want or need to though, the wheel would have been fully locked well before that point.
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Kentol750
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PostPosted: 22:43 - 07 Mar 2020    Post subject: Really? Reply with quote

Where, when and what test centre? You have reasons to complain. The bike passed an emergency stop on mod 1 and is recognised as doing so.

So, it's this... they cancelled the test... refund money coz it passed mod 1 emergency stop.

Or, give me another test asap when I fix spongey lever. Plus it's free.

Argue the point that brakes worked fine, you're in no rush and a free retest is also a win.

I'd normally say arguing wastes time, but on an a1, with a valid CBT, FITE!
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A2WillDo
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PostPosted: 00:27 - 08 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do I hope to acheive? - Well to be treated fairly, professionaly and for them to take a commen sense approach, act decently and do what's morally correct.. too much to ask?. As I've said, if I/bike was non compliant with any part of the test I'd expect to fail (and no refund) The point is I/bike wasn't non compliant with anything, I've not checked the small print but I do know that it can't unfairly benefit the DVSA. Would you just accept this if it were you? you turn up for a test and it's cancelled and non refundable without any justifiable reason at all? Just accept it?

@ Bhud - Good advice, and I know what you're saying about human nature, but not being able to take being proved wrong and still act professionally and objectively kinda hints these examiners are in the wrong job. I think I'll either do as you say and then slap the complaint in after I've passed or just complain and never go back to that test centre. Either way, I just find this ridiculous and I'd rather have a complaint in even if it doesn't go anywhere than allow this to slide..

@ Nobby the Bastard - it was almost worth this whole hassle just to learn that! although I don't normally stop for the filth anyway (just joking haha).

@ stinkwheel - agreed!

@ Kentol750 - I'll let you all know which test centre after I've heard back and the complaint has been investigated. I agree it's worth following up, more out of principle than anything else, they can't just take the piss like this and expect people to just take it.

I love the fact that I've had one post saying it's YOU aka me that wants a licence, and another post saying it's THEM that cancelled/terminated without reason. I have to agree with the latter post lol
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CorriganJ
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PostPosted: 01:21 - 08 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

A2WillDo wrote:
What do I hope to acheive? - Well to be treated fairly, professionaly and for them to take a commen sense approach, act decently and do what's morally correct.. too much to ask?.


Probably, frankly. You're 100% in the right on this, don't get me wrong. But life ain't fair and there is a good chance you won't get what you're owed from them. Can't hurt to try though. Or maybe it can. Do it anyway if you want.
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr



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PostPosted: 08:28 - 08 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

A2WillDo wrote:
What do I hope to acheive? - Well to be treated fairly, professionaly and for them to take a commen sense approach, act decently and do what's morally correct.. too much to ask?.


Ah! So you're an idealist... unfortunately this is the real world, and its unfair unjust and the law of sod rules... if it can go wrong it probably will... and what can you do about it? And IME 'common' sense is far from 'common', so get stoic, getting angry and irate that things aren't ideal is just a fast track to an ulcer and more pain; so take it on the chin, as one of them things, and move on... maybe galling, but pick the battles you stand a chance to win, don't re-enforce failure, remember round rocks roll down hill, square stones stack into walls, everything has its wha, go with it rather than against it, grass-hoppa and all that khamic chit......
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Dabuke
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PostPosted: 08:41 - 08 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah that's totally crap what happened mate, you probably would have been fine if you could have quoted what you found on the web at the time. Don't worry, Are you on the road now?
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MCN
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PostPosted: 10:17 - 08 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dabuke wrote:
Yeah that's totally crap what happened mate, you probably would have been fine if you could have quoted what you found on the web at the time. Don't worry, Are you on the road now?


I think I read that the OP crashed.

Something about the front brake. 🤔
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A2WillDo
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PostPosted: 13:36 - 08 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dabuke wrote:
Yeah that's totally crap what happened mate, you probably would have been fine if you could have quoted what you found on the web at the time. Don't worry, Are you on the road now?


Yeah I'm still on the road mate. I'm almost in the mind to just carry on riding without a CBT or licence and if it ever got to court I'd just argue the toss that I'd done everything reasonable to get a licence and paid for it but they'd unlawfully refused to give me one! haha that's how I bloody feel.

@ MCN, that must have just been a rumour you'd heard, sorry to disappoint.

I'm sure there are some examiners on this forum. Seems the power has gone to their heads.. think they're judge and bloody jury.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 14:41 - 08 Mar 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

A2WillDo wrote:
Dabuke wrote:
Yeah that's totally crap what happened mate, you probably would have been fine if you could have quoted what you found on the web at the time. Don't worry, Are you on the road now?


Yeah I'm still on the road mate. I'm almost in the mind to just carry on riding without a CBT or licence and if it ever got to court I'd just argue the toss that I'd done everything reasonable to get a licence and paid for it but they'd unlawfully refused to give me one! haha that's how I bloody feel.

@ MCN, that must have just been a rumour you'd heard, sorry to disappoint.

I'm sure there are some examiners on this forum. Seems the power has gone to their heads.. think they're judge and bloody jury.


And that's the sort of attitude that'll get you banned.

And examiners are the judge. It's sort of a requirement of the job...
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