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Londoner2015
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Londoner2015
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DrSnoosnoo
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 Posted: 09:38 - 28 Oct 2016  Post subject: |
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| Londoner2015 wrote: | | bamt wrote: | If you are wearing a proper jacket anyway then these seem a bit superfluous (and expensive). Maybe if you were wearing a fashion jacket instead there would be a point. |
Well, it depends on the jacket and on the kind of fall. In most tests, 500D Cordura, resists abrasion for about half a second. You don't need to be Valentino on a track day to slide for longer than that.
After all, that's why so few jackets ever met the stringent requirements for CE homologation (among others: level 1: 4-second abrasion resistance, level 2: 7 seconds in the impact areas). I don't expect a kevlar shirt to turn any garment into a CE-level 2, obviously - I just wonder if it could add a bit of extra protection, especially if used under lightweight jackets.
500D Cordura is still among the most sued fabrics; well, actually many manufacturers won't ever bother clarifying what materials they used in what areas. |
The internet has told me this so it's got to be true:
The point of textiles is NOT to slide. They grip the surface, causing you to roll.
Now, I do some work for the automotives and they desire abrasion resistance for most internal surfaces. The simplest way to survive an abrasion test is to make the material as slippy (the opposite of grippy. Technical term, stick with me) as possible.
So in my opinion, the textile won't be as abrasion resistant as leathers, because the leather is a smoother, more slippy material - hence Lorenzo goes sliding for 10 miles off the track into a barrier, away from the other racers. Wearing textiles would transfer your sliding motion into a roll, the textile gripping the surface, much friction m8, allowing you to come to a stop before hitting the barrier - but ready to be run over by dingbats.
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Did have: '95 ZZR600 '83 CG125 '97 ZZR1100 '15 Hypermotard 821 SP Do Have: '10 ZX10R |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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Posted: 09:42 - 28 Oct 2016  Post subject: |
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| Londoner2015 wrote: | In most tests, 500D Cordura, resists abrasion for about half a second. |
Which tests, plural, are you thinking of?
I have a (woven, IIRC) kevlar lined sweatshirt which I occasionally throw on, but for warmth rather than protection per se. I've not had the pleasure of sliding down the road on it - I'd expect any protection to be momentary.
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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tom_e
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Londoner2015
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| Posted: 09:48 - 28 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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| DrSnoosnoo wrote: |
So in my opinion, the textile won't be as abrasion resistant as leathers, because the leather is a smoother, more slippy material - hence Lorenzo goes sliding for 10 miles off the track into a barrier, away from the other racers. Wearing textiles would transfer your sliding motion into a roll, the textile gripping the surface, much friction m8, allowing you to come to a stop before hitting the barrier - but ready to be run over by dingbats. |
I do wonder what the best compromise is, though. If you slide more, you have a greater chance of hitting a hard object, but a lower chance of getting road rash and burns from the friction. If you slide less, it's the exact opposite.
Of course every accident is different, but I have seen reports and pictures, and heard stories from orthopedic doctors, of chaps who got horrible road rash and burns because they were wearing crappy textiles and fell off the bike on A roads at 60 mph (not exactly crazy speeds).
Anyway, since the kevlar shirt would be worn underneath a jacket, I suppose it will be the outer jack determining, for the most part, how much I slide or not in a fall. |
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tom_e
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| Posted: 09:52 - 28 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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| Londoner2015 wrote: | | DrSnoosnoo wrote: |
So in my opinion, the textile won't be as abrasion resistant as leathers, because the leather is a smoother, more slippy material - hence Lorenzo goes sliding for 10 miles off the track into a barrier, away from the other racers. Wearing textiles would transfer your sliding motion into a roll, the textile gripping the surface, much friction m8, allowing you to come to a stop before hitting the barrier - but ready to be run over by dingbats. |
I do wonder what the best compromise is, though. If you slide more, you have a greater chance of hitting a hard object, but a lower chance of getting road rash and burns from the friction. If you slide less, it's the exact opposite.
Of course every accident is different, but I have seen reports and pictures, and heard stories from orthopedic doctors, of chaps who got horrible road rash and burns because they were wearing crappy textiles and fell off the bike on A roads at 60 mph (not exactly crazy speeds).
Anyway, since the kevlar shirt would be worn underneath a jacket, I suppose it will be the outer jack determining, for the most part, how much I slide or not in a fall. |
Personally I'd take road rash and burns over snapped bones and crushed organs.
Obviously I'd rather have neither but that's more down to luck than anything else. |
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| Londoner2015 |
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Londoner2015
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| Posted: 09:53 - 28 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | | Londoner2015 wrote: | In most tests, 500D Cordura, resists abrasion for about half a second. |
Which tests, plural, are you thinking of?
I have a (woven, IIRC) kevlar lined sweatshirt which I occasionally throw on, but for warmth rather than protection per se. I've not had the pleasure of sliding down the road on it - I'd expect any protection to be momentary. |
What brand? Where did you get it?
The tests I remember were tests done with the same machine that is used to test abrasion resistance for the CE homologation, which derives from the Cambridge standard. This Brit was one of the main chaps behind it: https://www.pva-ppe.org.uk/paul.htm
I don't remember the exact link / article / interview if that's what you mean. It is food for thought, though, that it takes quite a bit of reinforced material to pass the level 1 CE homologation ( 4 seconds of abrasion resistance): the few homologated jackets are typically Cordura 1000D or something similar, sometimes with multiple layers. |
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DrSnoosnoo
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| Posted: 09:53 - 28 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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| Londoner2015 wrote: | I do wonder what the best compromise is, though. If you slide more, you have a greater chance of hitting a hard object, but a lower chance of getting road rash and burns from the friction. If you slide less, it's the exact opposite.
Of course every accident is different, but I have seen reports and pictures, and heard stories from orthopedic doctors, of chaps who got horrible road rash and burns because they were wearing crappy textiles and fell off the bike on A roads at 60 mph (not exactly crazy speeds).
Anyway, since the kevlar shirt would be worn underneath a jacket, I suppose it will be the outer jack determining, for the most part, how much I slide or not in a fall. |
Was this road rash caused by the failure of the jacket, exposing the elbow to the road? or was it from badly fitted gear, rising up, exposing the lower back etc?
Also, falling off at 60 on an A-road: if you could choose between road rash or sliding off into the barriers at the side of the road, or dry stone wall etc. which would be favourable?
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Did have: '95 ZZR600 '83 CG125 '97 ZZR1100 '15 Hypermotard 821 SP Do Have: '10 ZX10R |
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Londoner2015
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| Posted: 10:12 - 28 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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| DrSnoosnoo wrote: |
Was this road rash caused by the failure of the jacket, exposing the elbow to the road? or was it from badly fitted gear, rising up, exposing the lower back etc?
Also, falling off at 60 on an A-road: if you could choose between road rash or sliding off into the barriers at the side of the road, or dry stone wall etc. which would be favourable? |
In the cases I was told about road rash was caused by the failure of the jacket,exposing the flesh to the tarmac.
Like I said, I think a protective mid layer would not affect the slide vs tumble issue much, which should be determined mainly by the construction of the outer jacket.
As for sliding vs hitting on an A road, how long is a piece of string? Every accident is different and I honestly do not know enough to have an informed opinion on what is the most common type of accident and therefore what the best type of protection shall be.
Sure, between a bad case of road rash with burns which take years to heal and death from a fractured skill after hitting a barrier, the former is best, but I am not sure it is often this black and white.
The American did a study on motorcycle accidents many years ago (the Hurt report). The EU has done a similar one more recently, the MAIDS report. TFL also publishes reports on accidents. I wonder if they have any recommendations on the type of protective clothing. |
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Londoner2015
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| Posted: 10:23 - 28 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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FWIW, I think the current homologation standards are too harsh. Too few items meet them, so motorcyclists are basically left choosing between the vast majority of garments, on which there is no test whatsoever, and a very, very limited choice of homologated jackets and pants.
I think it would make more sense to have multiple levels of homologations: a scooter rider who only commutes in urban areas is unlikely to need the 7-second abrasion resistance of a level 2 jacket, or the 4ish seconds of a level 1.
Forcing manufacturers to disclose exactly what fabric was used in what areas (the way Revit does with very clear pictures on their labels) would be useful.
So would having some kind of equivalent to the SHARP test for helmets; if there's one thing those tests have shown, is that protection is not as correlated to price as manufacturers would like us to believe. But this is never going to happen: it would be too costly, and there would be too much pressure against it from manufacturers, who don't want it to be known that a good % of their products are **** . A big difference with helmets is that all helmets must pass a minimum homologation test, whereas jacket and trousers do not.
PS I do wonder why there are a few homologated jeans but not as many jackets. |
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DrSnoosnoo
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| Posted: 10:41 - 28 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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| Londoner2015 wrote: | In the cases I was told about road rash was caused by the failure of the jacket,exposing the flesh to the tarmac.
Like I said, I think a protective mid layer would not affect the slide vs tumble issue much, which should be determined mainly by the construction of the outer jacket.
As for sliding vs hitting on an A road, how long is a piece of string? Every accident is different and I honestly do not know enough to have an informed opinion on what is the most common type of accident and therefore what the best type of protection shall be.
Sure, between a bad case of road rash with burns which take years to heal and death from a fractured skill after hitting a barrier, the former is best, but I am not sure it is often this black and white.
The American did a study on motorcycle accidents many years ago (the Hurt report). The EU has done a similar one more recently, the MAIDS report. TFL also publishes reports on accidents. I wonder if they have any recommendations on the type of protective clothing. |
I'm not trying to sound like a pedant, but I am a bit of one, when you say failure, do you mean something like the elbow developed a hole?
Also, what jacket was it, in this example?
For example I wouldn't expect my 40 quid jobby from ebay to be as protective in a spill as I would my hundreds of notes IXS goretex doodah.
____________________
I'm Sam; Northern, Ginger, Lover
Did have: '95 ZZR600 '83 CG125 '97 ZZR1100 '15 Hypermotard 821 SP Do Have: '10 ZX10R |
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Londoner2015
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| Posted: 10:57 - 28 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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| DrSnoosnoo wrote: |
I'm not trying to sound like a pedant, but I am a bit of one, when you say failure, do you mean something like the elbow developed a hole?
Also, what jacket was it, in this example?
For example I wouldn't expect my 40 quid jobby from ebay to be as protective in a spill as I would my hundreds of notes IXS goretex doodah. |
Yours are excellent questions, but I cannot answer them with the detail you would like.
All I remember is chatting to a orthopedic doctor who said he had treated many motorcyclists, and said that in many cases their jackets failed, as in the jackets and whatever layers the riders had underneath tore apart, exposing the skin to the tarmac, with resulting road rash and burns. In the most severe cases, fabric had melted into the skin, requiring plastic surgery and a very long and painful recovery. The doctor in question had not compiled statistics classifying the type of fall, the estimated speed, the type of jacket, the brand, the type of protection, etc.
The American forum www.advrider.com has many crash reports; if you search there, or just google generally, I am sure you will find many examples of Cordura jackets which failed miserably. Of course single cases are statistically insignificant and utterly meaningless, which is why I wonder if the reports I had mentioned have any details / recommendations.
The BMF’s website has a story on the homologation standards: https://www.bmf.co.uk/news/show/personal-protective-equipment-ppe
| Quote: |
In practical layman's terms, Level 1 clothing should provide adequate protection in accidents at urban speeds, not higher than 30 mph/48 kph.
[…]
A heavy duty abrasive belt of known grit value and manufactured to a standard, spins at a constant speed of eight metres per second or just under 18 miles per hour. […]he test continues until the sample is abraded through,
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Rogerborg
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Alpineandy
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Old Thread Alert!
There is a gap of 3 years, 210 days between these two posts... |
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| Blueberry |
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Blueberry
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 3 years, 333 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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