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eScooters legalised from Saturday

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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 16:20 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: eScooters legalised from Saturday Reply with quote

BBC News wrote:
Under the new rules to be set out by the Department for Transport, e-scooter companies could launch scooter-sharing schemes in UK towns and cities and it will be legal to ride one of these scooters on the road from Saturday.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53219331

but...

Quote:
Privately owned e-scooters will not be legalised.


<sniff, sniff> what's that I smell? is it lobbyist bullshit?

Watch out then when crossing the road!
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 16:54 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

So someone whose never ridden one can get on and hire one without safety gear.

Someone who's owned one, has the helmet and knows how to ride one, can't.

Hmmm. I agree, lobbying successful by Voi, Bird et all.

Can't find if they can be used on roads or pavements though.
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slowside
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PostPosted: 16:59 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Re: eScooters legalised from Saturday Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:


Quote:
Privately owned e-scooters will not be legalised.


<sniff, sniff> what's that I smell? is it lobbyist bullshit?



Possibly. Or risk mitigation; if the likes of Lime and Uber are running the game on eScoots they can pick up the pieces if there is a nasty accident spread across the tabloids.

If it's opened up to masses with no corporate intermediary, Grant Shapps will have to get his hands dirty mopping up the entrails.

Either way I'm all for it (legalise use for everyone that is), they are in widespread use privately as it is so why not legalise and apply some level of sensible regulation to their use so people have more options for transport.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 17:43 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Re: eScooters legalised from Saturday Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
BBC News wrote:
Under the new rules to be set out by the Department for Transport, e-scooter companies could launch scooter-sharing schemes in UK towns and cities and it will be legal to ride one of these scooters on the road from Saturday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53219331

but...

Quote:
Privately owned e-scooters will not be legalised.

<sniff, sniff> what's that I smell? is it lobbyist bullshit?

Watch out then when crossing the road!

1) These abstrads will ride them on the pavement.
2) They will be company-owned to avoid huge amounts of extra legislation I'd guess.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 17:49 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Can't find if they can be used on roads or pavements though.

They are not legal to ride on footpaths/pavements at all. The hire company ones won't be either. Will it stop various abstrads zooming along the paths? I bet it won't.
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Jmoan
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PostPosted: 19:24 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Re: eScooters legalised from Saturday Reply with quote

Depending on the model they were always legal.

Now what I want to know is, if you stick a couple of jet engines on them, are they mechanically propelled vehicles Thinking
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 20:14 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose it must be because of insurance (i.e. the rental company is probably insured), and if they need to have licences, that just makes it easier to get the ball rolling to rack up the penalty points when they do something stupid on the road with one of those things.

I've seen some incredibly stupid moves by people riding e-scooters. Every day, it seems there's more and more reason to cover your back with a dashcam, whether in your car or on your bike.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 20:22 - 30 Jun 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Road, pavement... who cares?

What will be very interesting is eScooters invading the "private roads" of the lycra clad cycling mob Smile
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 07:13 - 01 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luckily I live in the arsehole of Wiltshire, I doubt they'll make it to me. Maybe Salisbury but I only ever go there for Waitrose, the centre is just for Russians with an interest in Spires.

Bhud wrote:
I suppose it must be because of insurance


Would that Insurance be there to cover accidents like motor vehicle insurance? I'd bet when one of these things pulls out on a bike and you hit it at 30mph the person on it will cause significant damage to your bike, I can't imagine the rental companies are going to be covering that, so are we going to be left fixing our own vehicles for non fault e-scooter accidents. If so I best fit a cow catcher to the car.

I'm cynical I think the entire "H&S", arguement for it being rental companies only will at some point transpire to show a Westminster interest in whoever the dominant rental companies are.

On/Off topic I noticed yesterday my local Lidl was selling one 149.
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Poseidon
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PostPosted: 08:40 - 01 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks to me like they're just making sure there aren't quite as many dickheads riding them without a clue as we get with push bikes. Not exactly a bad thing as far as I'm concerned, given that I regularly find myself at the helm of a 25+tonne articulated vehicle with cyclists all around me who seem hell bent on getting their skulls crushed by my tyres.

BBC wrote:
Riders will need a full or provisional car, motorcycle or moped licence to use the vehicles, and they must be aged 16 or over.

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Robby
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PostPosted: 08:41 - 01 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a way, this legislation is a good thing, because its an example of reactive legislation. E-scooters are a thing, legislating against them didn't work - people were using them anyway - so some legislation has come along to make some use of them legal.

Now that it's in place, it can be further modified to put in place a proper framework for privately owned ones. Maybe a requirement for insurance or something, to bridge the gap between bicycles and mopeds.

This is also recognising that there is a class of electric vehicle below mopeds. That provides an incentive to push R&D into that area, which makes my desire for an electric bike with performance equivalent to a 250cc bike more realistic.

I hate electric scooters, but this does provide pathways towards something I want.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 09:23 - 01 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Legislation of any sort is only valid if it is enforced. Can you see coppers stopping e scooters the check if their rider has a licence? Course not. The don't stop them now when they are totally illegal.

FFS they ignore pikeys riding round on pitbikes with no helmets on the redways in MK, there's no way they'll bother with scooters.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 14:48 - 06 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's why it's reactive legislation. Previously enforcement was tricky and ultimately pointless - the penalty wasn't going to be enough to be a deterrent whilst still being fair, and people would keep doing what they were doing seeing as there was no legal alternative.

Now there is a legal alternative, and it will be easy to tell legal electric scooters - liveried ones from hire companies - from personally owned ones.

It can also lead to a more constructive conversation with the police. Instead of saying "you can't do that", they can say "you can't ride that one on the road, but you can ride one of these". A bit like being caught speeding, where it's more constructive to say "Only ride like that on a race track".

Not a complete solution to all of society's problems, but a step in the right direction.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 16:07 - 06 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robby wrote:
Not a complete solution to all of society's problems, but a step in the right direction.


I'd agree but we (as a society) still haven't agreed that cyclists don't need to read the Highway Code. What I mean is: yes of course they should but the reality is the lycra mob don't give a flying and no one's interested in pulling them up over it. The eScooter mob will doubtless be much worse Sad

First insurance claim of bus/car/bike vs eScooter rental company will be interesting!
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 16:37 - 06 Jul 2020    Post subject: Re: eScooters legalised from Saturday Reply with quote

Jmoan wrote:
Depending on the model they were always legal.

No, they were not and are not, actually.

Trials of these company-owned ones have started in Middlesbrough, Redcar & Cleveland, Stockton, Hartlepool and Darlington, apparently.

Users of these rented ones need at least a provisional car, motorcycle or moped licence, and have to be 16 or over. Only the rented ones will be legal under UK law, and only on the road, not on the footpath, and it seems they will be about 12MPH ones.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/speed-limits-helmets-how-book-18540070
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 16:40 - 06 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
First insurance claim of bus/car/bike vs eScooter rental company will be interesting!

The scooter hire company will be taking care of the insurance, apparently.

I think it would be a good idea if any and all electric scooters (plus electric skateboards and so on) being illegally used on pavements/footpaths were be seized and scrapped.
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 21:02 - 06 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saw a post by Suffolk Police on FailTomb that they are classed as motor vehicles.

Therefore, if caught on one after having a few beers you could lose your car/bike licence as well.

That might catch a few supermarket cider park drinkers.

Not sure if it was a p1sstake though.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 21:47 - 06 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:
Saw a post by Suffolk Police on FailTomb that they are classed as motor vehicles.

Therefore, if caught on one after having a few beers you could lose your car/bike licence as well.

That might catch a few supermarket cider park drinkers.

Not sure if it was a p1sstake though.

Nick Freeman, the "celegrity get out of jail free" lawyer, says that users will need to be identifiable, i.e. by wearing a tabard, presumably with some sort of number on it. Yes, they seem to be motor vehicles at the moment.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 22:27 - 06 Jul 2020    Post subject: Re: eScooters legalised from Saturday Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
Jmoan wrote:
Depending on the model they were always legal.

No, they were not and are not, actually.


Theoretically one could take an eScooter and try and put it through the newly updated MSVA that includes regs for 250W throttle controlled eBikes. It would need to be one with a seat so think more like Honda Zoomer.

And, of course, there's nothing stopping you putting it through as a "moped" class of bike with the associated driving licence requirements.
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G
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PostPosted: 23:41 - 06 Jul 2020    Post subject: Re: eScooters legalised from Saturday Reply with quote

I've got a 1kw escooter with Q-plate and V5.
It's a bit bigger and heavier than the new breed, but has (barely useful) suspension, twin brakes and a removable seat as well as a 48v/20ah battery (a good chunk bigger than most of the new ones have I think).
It's always been possible for those, but most people don't want to also stick to road rules.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 08:36 - 07 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

That thing is insurable?
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Robby
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PostPosted: 08:37 - 07 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:


I'd agree but we (as a society) still haven't agreed that cyclists don't need to read the Highway Code. What I mean is: yes of course they should but the reality is the lycra mob don't give a flying and no one's interested in pulling them up over it. The eScooter mob will doubtless be much worse Sad



Worse from our point of view, but as bikers we are all biased. From our point of view, we have to jump through a lot of hoops and pay a lot of money to get legal on the road. If we then ride in a dangerous manner and ignore the rules of the road, we can expect points or bans, making it even more expensive/difficult to be legal on the road.

So that point of view, this all looks unfair.

However, from the point of view of someone who has no interest in motorcycles, bicycles or e-scooters, it's a very different view. They want to know if this thing is going to inconvenience, hurt or kill them and theirs. In that case, a lightweight e-scooter doing 12mph has about the same likelihood and capacity to cause harm as a bicycle.

You can slide on a corner and throw a 200kg motorcycle towards a bus stop at 60mph during the school run. That's a genuine risk. Our moaning about someone else having easier legislation compliance than us is just pointless moaning. If our objection to e-scooters is purely that it's unfair and thinking up hypothetical what-ifs (like what if the insurance claim process doesn't work) then we're trying to play a zero-sum game.

If the legislation works - reducing the overall risk from e-scooters to the general public, and incentivising their use - then it works. If it doesn't, then it will need changing.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 11:21 - 07 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Least we forget: an unpowered fixie killed someone and highlighted the inadequacies of the law...

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/sep/18/cyclist-charlie-alliston-jailed-for-18-months-over-death-of-pedestrian

However, looking at the actual government info rather than the journalistic mangling:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/legalising-rental-e-scooter-trials-defining-e-scooters-and-rules-for-their-use/legalising-rental-e-scooter-trials

This makes a lot more sense: to consider legalising eScooters the government wants to go in lightly by trialling commercial ones first, i.e. a more consistent testing framework, and weigh up 12.5 or 15.5 mph, 250W & 350W motors, licence requirements, training etc.

They seem to have applied the eBike regs for the hardware but are treating eScooters as "motorbike lite" in that you need motor insurance (provided by the eScooter rental company) and a licence to ride one. No CBT as yet but they've left the door open on that one.

Actually seems quite a sensible approach for once! I think the only downside is that it gives car and motorbike riders more of an excuse to punch down on cyclists. "Hey look! These guys have to have insurance yet push bikes go faster..." etc.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 11:53 - 07 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, but only any good if it is going to be enforced.

There is a young couple across the road from me, both with escooters. Every morning they wizz off up the road on them. No numberplate, I bet no insurance and as neither drive, I wouldn't expect any sort of licence.

They have driven/ridden past the local cop car, not interested.

Now in some ways I'm ok with that. They aren't doing any harm and I'd prefer the cops to be doing something more useful but when one of them hits or is hit by a car, who's going to get the sh1t whatever, the car driver.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 12:57 - 08 Jul 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're assuming no insurance. They might have it. Lots of cyclists do - it makes sense when you're a highly vulnerable road user with a bicycle that costs 500+.

You're also what-ifing about what happens in a crash. As with anything involving a road traffic accident, the outcome is largely arbitrary depending on how underhand the insurance companies decide to be.

They are technically in breach of a minor law. The police are deciding the turn a blind eye in this case. I would assume the police would only try to enforce if they were also trying to prevent something else - riding dangerously, antisocial behaviour that sort of thing.
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