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Extinction Rebellion go nuclear!

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Kris
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PostPosted: 12:50 - 16 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
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XR’s leaders see anti-capitalism as crucial to the cause of environmentalism. Signs reading “planet before profit” and “capitalism is costing the Earth” abound at these protests.

And on Wednesday’s Today Programme, XR’s spokesperson dodged a question on whether the movement wanted a “permanent state of recession”, replying instead “it’s not remotely extreme, it’s just common sense”. The “de-growth” agenda is central to their demands.

This is not only disingenuous, given that many of the people protesting this week are doing so in an attempt to protect the planet, not as an attack on free-market liberalism; it is counter-productive.

First, jamming up cities and causing misery for millions of workers does nothing for the environment except increase traffic pollution, while alienating people who might otherwise be sympathetic.

As Policy Exchange noted: “the impact of the first week of their protests during April 2019 was estimated to have cost shops £12m in lost takings and to have delayed 500,000 commuters”. XR has also threatened to shut down airports – disruption that would primarily impact families on their summer holidays, not to mention exporters.

YouGov’s “top issue” tracker shows that the environment is one of the key priorities for voters, topped only by Brexit and health. Britain is both aware of the threat and supportive of the cause. Radical tactics that make everyday city life unbearable risk doing more harm than good.

More fundamentally, though, the pernicious argument that dismantling western capitalism is the only way to save the planet is demonstrably false. The kind of big-state socialism that XR’s leaders (albeit not the majority of its supporters) seem to espouse has an abysmal environmental track record.

From the catastrophic pollution of the centrally-planned Soviet Union to the biodiversity annihilation of Mao’s China, socialist regimes have historically been far more ecologically damaging than their capitalist counterparts.

Nor is economic growth incompatible with environmentalism. In fact, the richer a country’s citizens are, the more they tend to care about the environment (you are, after all, less likely to worry about an endangered species if you can’t afford to feed your family).


Extinction Rebellion can fuck off, bunch of Socialist wankers
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 13:34 - 16 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Diggs wrote:
George Monbiot is a proper bell-end, but I do get his point. It can equally be applied to the Right however, who also feel disenfranchised.

What he fails to grasp is that one movement begets the other. XR, justifiable as its cause is, promotes an equal reaction in those that are happy to see the planet slide down the pan because they think it is someone else's fault and therefore not their responsibility. The 'Clarkson' mentality, if you like. Dressing in curtains and describing the death of whales via the medium of mime, whilst appealing to an arty-farty middle-class, isn't going to convince the majority.


This is where a lot of movements fail. Its not the issue it's the way those for whom the issue is a priority demand others also make it their priority. It ends up being counter productive, people then ignoring the issue or even acting against the movement. I think the BLM is the most obvious example of this. I can understand the issue of racism and in terms of global issues that humanity faces its up there in my top ten even though not number one. On a personal level though it's not even in my top twenty. In a country where the overwhelming majority of people are of one race then clearly personalisation of issues is likely not to put issues facing a minority in the majorities prime consideration. Trying to force that minorities issues ends up being counter productive and those who would act abusively towards minorities get a free pass as the majority look the other way, feeling harassed themselves and that their individual needs are demeaned.

I recognise both issues of climate and racism but I see little in the very public movements of XR or BLM that attract me to supporting them because they look so counter productive and flash in the pan.

Anyway what's so wrong with being arty farty? Are you a Pol Pot'ist? Laughing
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doggone
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PostPosted: 14:54 - 16 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ribenapigeon wrote:
Here's a proper leftie. George Monbiot on XR and democracy. I don't like the XR mentality but I'm pretty sure I have more in common with any member of or supporter of XR than I do with the rich oligarchy that have more direct influence over our government than we as ordinary voters do.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/16/extinction-rebellion-britain-democracy-protest-westminster
He makes a good point for the call from XR for citizens assemblies and more involvement of citizens in budgetary matters.

What bothers me about XR is its attempt to use hystrionics to garner support, its no better than the rights scare mongering over immigration for instance. Using a creepy 16 year old with a disturbing resemblance to a Hitler Youth doesn't help either.

Citizen Assemblies who selects people for that, just imagine how many venture capitalists or indeed 'normal' people will be allowed.
You will need yogurt weaving credentials to get a look in - but more to the point it will be the obsessed greens like Monbiot will push themselves forward.
We could of course consider a citizen assembly where you vote for someone to represent you in parliament about every 4 years.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 15:13 - 16 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
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We could of course consider a citizen assembly where you vote for someone to represent you in parliament about every 4 years.


Easy now... Have this and you'll end up with assemblies full of venture capitalists and the like, and, god forbid, career politicians Laughing

A problem with any form of democracy is getting a truly representative government. The closest we could ever get to this is via PR, and that would mean more LibDems, Greens, BNP and all the other currently 'minority' parties. Given that the largest proportion of the electorate to cast a vote last time (i.e. 30% overall) voted Tory, we would end up with a government with no power.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 15:43 - 16 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, PR sounds all well and good but take a look at Belgium:

TLDR News wrote:
634 Days Without a Government: Belgium's Complex Politics Explained


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy37WDkptZk

Your choices are Everyone Gets A Say and nothing gets done or First Past The Post where shit definitely does get done but rarely anything good Wink

Personally I'm a bit suspicious of "citizens' assemblies" sounding a lot like the "workers' co-ops" of the Communist era Thinking i.e. it devolves into block-voting, the original intent being entirely subverted.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 16:05 - 16 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Anyhoo, getting back to the Nuclear debate I can't seem to see any XR opinions on Nuclear Fusion. It's "hair shirts for all" and "plant more trees" Sad
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 21:27 - 16 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nuclear Fusion would bring almost limitless clean energy for all.

Problem is, many of the current corporations wouldn't be too happy with that.

It worries me that XR and BLM have so much in common. Both are anti-capitalist, BLM of course think that climate change is 'racist'. Both like to go out on peaceful protests, both are woke.

If they were to join forces under lammy or someone they could represent a very powerful force.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 08:28 - 17 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
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If they were to join forces under lammy or someone they could represent a very powerful force.


Not sure about that. They haven't captured the hearts of 'ordinary' people in this country because they have been effectively demonised as 'commies', 'anarchists' etc irrespective of the sense of the main message, and that goes for both groups.

Given Lammy's standing with the general public, him leading them would go down like a turd in a sandpit... If it were a national treasure like David Attenborough however, things may be different.


edit:

Thinking about it, perhaps not. If David Attenborough became their leader, rumours would soon circulate about him fucking gibbons or similar, because that is the way we roll... Crying or Very sad
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 10:03 - 17 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Diggs wrote:
Quote:
We could of course consider a citizen assembly where you vote for someone to represent you in parliament about every 4 years.


Easy now... Have this and you'll end up with assemblies full of venture capitalists and the like, and, god forbid, career politicians Laughing

A problem with any form of democracy is getting a truly representative government. The closest we could ever get to this is via PR, and that would mean more LibDems, Greens, BNP and all the other currently 'minority' parties. Given that the largest proportion of the electorate to cast a vote last time (i.e. 30% overall) voted Tory, we would end up with a government with no power.


Well then, looks like the only alternative is a dictatorship.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 10:08 - 17 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:


Personally I'm a bit suspicious of "citizens' assemblies" sounding a lot like the "workers' co-ops" of the Communist era Thinking i.e. it devolves into block-voting, the original intent being entirely subverted.


I'm on a local Health and Social Care group. No communists or yoghurt knitting goes on. All people with a genuine interest.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 10:19 - 17 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ribenapigeon wrote:
Easy-X wrote:


Personally I'm a bit suspicious of "citizens' assemblies" sounding a lot like the "workers' co-ops" of the Communist era Thinking i.e. it devolves into block-voting, the original intent being entirely subverted.


I'm on a local Health and Social Care group. No communists or yoghurt knitting goes on. All people with a genuine interest.


Very good, have a cookie Wink No, the way XR frame their "citizens' assemblies" feels more like a vehicle to subvert democracy than anything worthy.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 11:53 - 17 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Diggs wrote:
Quote:
If they were to join forces under lammy or someone they could represent a very powerful force.


Not sure about that. They haven't captured the hearts of 'ordinary' people in this country because they have been effectively demonised as 'commies', 'anarchists' etc irrespective of the sense of the main message, and that goes for both groups.


The message is not lost on ordinary people, who don't like racism and do think we should continue to do things to reduce pollution. It's just that most people don't take every issue straight to the extremes. And they don't think there is any need to tear our democracy down, just continue to make fine adjustments here and there as required.
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 12:25 - 17 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:

The message is not lost on ordinary people, who don't like racism and do think we should continue to do things to reduce pollution. It's just that most people don't take every issue straight to the extremes. And they don't think there is any need to tear our democracy down, just continue to make fine adjustments here and there as required.


I agree with all of that and would ask what kind of 'fine adjustments' do you think are required (and to be clear, what is it that we are trying to achieve with those adjustments)?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:34 - 17 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
mentalboy wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:

The message is not lost on ordinary people, who don't like racism and do think we should continue to do things to reduce pollution. It's just that most people don't take every issue straight to the extremes. And they don't think there is any need to tear our democracy down, just continue to make fine adjustments here and there as required.


I agree with all of that and would ask what kind of 'fine adjustments' do you think are required (and to be clear, what is it that we are trying to achieve with those adjustments)?


Democratic systems are all about constant fine adjustments to suit prevailing conditions. That is their strength.
What we and the US should be doing now, as an example, is increasing funding for the police to ensure better and constant training, and incorporating better vetting processes for new officer applicants.
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 12:46 - 17 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:


Democratic systems are all about constant fine adjustments to suit prevailing conditions. That is their strength.
What we and the US should be doing now, as an example, is increasing funding for the police to ensure better and constant training, and incorporating better vetting processes for new officer applicants.


And how do we attract those who are so disgruntled with the system that they don't get involved and use their vote? They should be the types who form the backbone of a good democracy, otherwise you get stuck with extremists running the roost in two party systems.

And how do you stamp out misinformation? For example, can it really be that Donald Trump, a man who has a bit of a history with questionable patygoing and inappropriate statements about his own daughter, is really our saviour who is going to rescue us from the elitists paedophile ring?
Or, was Stoneman Douglas an elaborate plot and it's OK to harangue the mothers of dead kids because it didn't really happen?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:48 - 17 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry, I'm not God Laughing
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 00:24 - 18 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm left thinking: what is actually the point of XR? I know what it's not: it's not a group of well meaning people who genuinely want the best for the planet and the people living on it.

Are we to believe these people seriously think they can usher in a new Communist Utopia or is that just a clever misdirection? Having said that previous attempts at such a thing have led to the death of millions in the 20th Century so maybe the 21st could ratchet that up to billions which would be the only way to have any meaningful impact on Climate Change.

Probably be a sign above the death camps: "We plant a tree when we bury thee" Shocked
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 10:02 - 18 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
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what is actually the point of XR? I know what it's not: it's not a group of well meaning people who genuinely want the best for the planet and the people living on it


There's the rub. From what I know about XR (and I was asked to join in its infancy but declined), it is a middle-class protest group comprising people who's hearts are in the right place, have a bit of spare time and want to do something to make the rest of the world aware that without faster change we will go down the pan.

It is in the execution of world-saving ideas that even ordinary XR members have a problem, because to do something truly effective requires a massive structural change in society. These people protesting in bedsheets with buckets of fake blood or whatever will be the first to go under, because their jobs, pensions etc are imbedded in the thing they wish to destroy. They know this yet they continue to protest, which is comparable to a turkey voting for Christmas.

An irony is that in their new world order, those they despise the most will come out best, i.e. rich people with property and guns, and right-wing nutters with bunkers and guns.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 10:47 - 18 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
mentalboy wrote:
And how do we attract those who are so disgruntled with the system that they don't get involved and use their vote?
...
And how do you stamp out misinformation?

It seems to me that most of both of these is down to the "free press".

The various publications tend to aim their product according to their political alliegence (and to some extent their target's social scale), and use similar techniques. They all use words with "implications", and also pick and choose their "facts". Everything is reported "now", to be first, and if the facts change, then they may be reflected in updated reports, but probably won't be; new reports will be issued, also aimed at "their" readers to satisfy "their" desires, but the old ones remain available, especially with "new" technology.

I think that true news can be had, BUT it's hard work, and absolutely requires looking at different publications, news and non-news, both domestic and foreign, over a period of time. Most people CBA to do this, and just think that "what was printed in today's XYZ is true", wheher it's the BBC, the "Independent", The Sun, Yahoo, Biong, The Daily Express, "The Grauniad" or wherever. There's too much info!

With so many different published views, which are distorted by the publisher's political views and the views of their readers (and don't forget advertiser pressure and ease of access to notable figures!), and such frequent changes in output, it's no wonder that people becpome confused and disillusioned by the whole process.

What can be done about it? That's pretty difficult. I don't know.
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 22:37 - 18 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ribenapigeon wrote:
Well then, looks like the only alternative is a dictatorship.


The best form of government is a dictatorship tempered with the occasional assassination Thumbs Up
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 12:56 - 27 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
W the actual F?!

BBC News wrote:
Nuclear power: Are we too anxious about the risks of radiation?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54211450

Quote:
Consider this conundrum: when you talk to climate scientists you quickly discover they are far more worried about the dangers of global warming than most of us. Some tell you privately that they have had counselling to cope with the psychological effects of knowing the world is facing an impending disaster and not enough is being done.

Meanwhile, speak to experts on the effects of ionising radiation and you find they are surprisingly relaxed about the risks low-level exposure poses to human health - certainly far less so than most people.


I can foresee this Justin fella getting death threats for going against dogma.
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 21:33 - 27 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
"Some (climate scientists) tell you privately that they have had counselling to cope with the psychological effects of knowing the world is facing an impending disaster and not enough is being done."

Seriously?

I notice that Justin Rowlatt's article is full of problems without presenting any solutions. Presumably Justin likes his bathroom light to turn on when he flicks the switch.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 12:07 - 28 Sep 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well it is an opinion piece rather than actual news but still not what you'd expect from the BBC.
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 3 years, 210 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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