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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 11:21 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: The Great Reset Reply with quote

The 'great reset' theory says that something needs to be done about the rise of A.I. and the power of big data. There is an obvious growing reality where A.I. takes over so many jobs that society is left with a new 'useless class' of people who simply aren't required because robots can do it for them. The 'useless class' will require a universal basic income.

Someone I know insisted I watch this short documentary.

https://vimeo.com/504878361/40c57eeafb

They wanted me to see the underlying big-picture conspiracy that the UK government is enacting, as part of the World Economic Forum's 'Great Reset' and the introduction of the 4th industrial revolution (the advent of A.I. and big data). Conspiracy theorists say the UK's appalling covid response has been deliberate, in order to crush businesses and create a new society where a handful of tech/corporate giants hold the power, with new sweeping control enabled via mass surveillance, big data and even human microchipping.

Apparently the documentary highlights lots of scary tyrannical things. Personally I thought it was fascinating and welcome the change. It's not like things have been getting any better for the last decade or two, so obviously something needs to happen. Maybe this is it? Pushing aside the conspiracy angle, it looks like a vision for a new world where tech is embraced and managed for good. There is even the concept of a 'robot tax', where companies must pay tax for the work their robots do, since those robots generate income just like the humans they are replacing (Amazon is the best example of this). Could we finally be approaching the future that was envisioned almost a century ago, where technology frees us from prior wage slavery?

Interestingly, Boris Johnson's 'Build Back Better' slogan from a few months ago was in fact a slogan taken from the WEF great reset event, and was used also by Joe Biden and Justin Trudeau, among others. So clearly there is some truth, at least to the fact that this 'great reset' idea exists, and that world leaders have it in their minds in some way.

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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 12:57 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry that article is as conspiratorial theory as anything else I have seen done by loonies. Cherry pick what you want, ignore what you don't.

As far as the great reset and universal income.

Cheap labour is cheap labour. End of.

Whatever is cheapest and wherever it is cheapest thats where companies will go. If robots are cheaper they will use them. If universal credit forces companies to pay 'robot' tax in UK, they'll move their factory to somewhere that doesn't have 'robot' tax. The wonder of globalisation. Rolling Eyes

In my industry i saw the worst of globalisation. In the 70's it was all British officers and crew on British flag ships (maybe up to 50 crew on a tanker). By the end of the 80's it was smaller crews. Ratings were from Hong Kong and India (cheaper). When I left the sea non of our ships were British flag. Officers and crew were from the cheapest source that had international recognition and the total crew on an oil tanker was between 15 and 18. There are now hardly any British seafarers and ships.

Labour costs are the biggest outgoing and the easiest to cut.

Paying our population £10000 universal credit would cost £670,000,000,000 ish. It isn't going to happen unless we get rid of the social state completely (saving a fortune) and say, that's your lot. If you spend it all, tough shit, you starve.

I can see that going down well with the great unwashed.
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Last edited by Polarbear on 13:07 - 28 Jan 2021; edited 1 time in total
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Jmoan
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PostPosted: 13:03 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robot tax? Does this mean we can send Bill Gates a massive back dated tax bill on the jobs his products removed?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 13:43 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

The very idea that a few wealthy elite are able to push buttons and engineer such widespread change is hokum. The world is chaotic; that’s all you need to know.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 18:05 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
The world is chaotic; that’s all you need to know.


That's what they want you to think...

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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 19:30 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
The very idea that a few wealthy elite are able to push buttons and engineer such widespread change is hokum. The world is chaotic; that’s all you need to know.


I don't see it from a 'few wealthy elite' point of view. That's the angle the conspiracy theorists are taking.

To me it looks like a basic discussion of policy around the future of AI and the ever-growing 'useless classes' being forced out by automation.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 19:36 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:


Cheap labour is cheap labour. End of.


Until it becomes free labour. Amazon are aiming to have a completely roboticised logistics chain within 10 years. At that point, they don't need to locate themselves to a cheapo shithole banana republic with cheap workers.

Instead it'll be a question of which country they can operate in with the lowest tax (or... lowest robot tax).

Also they'll be focused on pure logistics, i.e. the country with the best road, rail and air infrastructure. Realistically they'll probably lean closer to China because that's where half their stuff is made anyway, but there would likely be Amazon logistics hubs dotted around every continent. Cheap labour will not need to be a consideration any more. The same goes for all industries as more and more stuff is done by robotics. At the very least, it's an interesting thing to think about.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 20:17 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are Amazon robots “AI” in the 21st Century sense? Aren’t they just running on tracks to bring inventory items to the human workforce which has the ability to actually pack and dispatch?

It’s fair to say governments may be idly considering what they might have to do if AI puts us all out of work, but the OP implies they’re engineering it. I don’t agree.

Finland trialled universal basic income and it failed (though critics say the trial was flawed).
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 20:23 - 28 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

But that is basically what this country is becoming anyway - workers who work in service industries be it waiter, teacher, nurses, train drivers etc. They are all service industries.

If you are waiting for universal income, don't hold your breath.Where are we going to pay for that when a large swathe of the population isn't earning enough to pay tax or NI but still expect mollycoddling from birth to the grave.
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 01:57 - 29 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as they know how to use the three shells.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 11:03 - 29 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Are Amazon robots “AI” in the 21st Century sense? Aren’t they just running on tracks to bring inventory items to the human workforce which has the ability to actually pack and dispatch?

It’s fair to say governments may be idly considering what they might have to do if AI puts us all out of work, but the OP implies they’re engineering it. I don’t agree.



Yep, Amazon robots are also "AI". We don't need human levels of 'intelligence'. Maybe AI was the wrong term to use. It should simply be 'automation', which is happening at an ever-grander scale.

I also don't agree about any big changed being deliberately engineered. That's what the conspiracy nuts are saying. I just think it's interesting that this concept has been raised at all, and that world governments have indeed had the idea inject into their minds since the WEF event. I'm just curious about what could happen next.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 11:06 - 29 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:

If you are waiting for universal income, don't hold your breath.Where are we going to pay for that when a large swathe of the population isn't earning enough to pay tax or NI but still expect mollycoddling from birth to the grave.


Robot tax Wink

I'm not waiting for my UBI. To be honest, given that I work in software, I probably won't be in the new 'useless class' which these great resetters are predicting. This is perhaps why I'm interested by the development of the idea, rather than afraid of it. Either way, I agree that UBI would be fundamental in a world where automation steals all the jobs.
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pepperami
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PostPosted: 11:30 - 29 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who fixes all the broken robots?
Will we become the robot doctors or their slaves?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:34 - 29 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

The robot-fixer robots, of course!
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 13:11 - 29 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
The robot-fixer robots, of course!


And who fixes those?

There's a lot appraisal through rose-tinted spectacle here. With all due respect the Gene Roddenberry or Isaac Asimov style of "future utopian optimism" is all well and good but I've never seen an evidence that the rich and powerful have ever had the best interests of the "small folk" at heart. This just looks like another grift to transfer wealth "up the pyramid."

Tools, manufacturing, automation: they all lead to the creation of stuff with less and less human input and/or faster & more accurate output. So what happens when humans (as in the plebs) are utterly redundant? Justin Timberlake may not be your first "go-to" when it comes to political commentary but In Time might well be worth another watch Shocked
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:03 - 29 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:


I'm not waiting for my UBI. To be honest, given that I work in software, I probably won't be in the new 'useless class' which these great resetters are predicting.


What use are you, really?
If you vanished without a trace tomorrow, am I going to notice? Will your local community notice? Your company? Will they be crippled without you? Or will they just find someone to replace you, assuming you did have any usefulness? Do you have any family who would care? If you want to see people merely as objects of usefulness or otherwise, everyone is expendable. There's always someone else to take your place.

You're not useful to me, nor I to you. Who gets to decide what is useful and what is not? Do we all value the same things?
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The Shaggy D.A.
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PostPosted: 19:27 - 29 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
To be honest, given that I work in software, I probably won't be in the new 'useless class' which these great resetters are predicting.


I dunno, when I worked in software there were plenty of people whose absence increased productivity.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 20:16 - 29 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
To be honest, given that I work in software, I probably won't be in the new 'useless class' which these great resetters are predicting.

Job for life? You’ll outlive your usefulness in the brave new world like everyone else does. Skynet won’t need you.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 22:46 - 29 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


What use are you, really?
If you vanished without a trace tomorrow, am I going to notice? Will your local community notice? Your company? Will they be crippled without you? Or will they just find someone to replace you, assuming you did have any usefulness? Do you have any family who would care? If you want to see people merely as objects of usefulness or otherwise, everyone is expendable. There's always someone else to take your place.

You're not useful to me, nor I to you. Who gets to decide what is useful and what is not? Do we all value the same things?


Well I can say for certain that the company I left 2 months ago have had to mothball the project they had me working on, because nobody else can do it, so yes there's a need. Not just for me, but software developers in general. We have a dire shortage in this country.

Aside from that, no I don't think I'd be missed hugely by humanity if I blipped into nothingness Laughing But neither would anyone, in the grand scheme of things!
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 22:47 - 29 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
To be honest, given that I work in software, I probably won't be in the new 'useless class' which these great resetters are predicting.

Job for life? You’ll outlive your usefulness in the brave new world like everyone else does. Skynet won’t need you.


Can't wait Dance!

I've heard programmer's careers are short lived, it gets harder to stay relevant beyond 50-ish.

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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 02:42 - 30 Jan 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Percy wrote:
...it gets harder to stay relevant beyond 50-ish


Oh dear. A year or so to go Sad We shall see...

To be totally honest, and arrogant as it is to assess one's own skills* I'm at the point where I'm writing the best code of my life in terms of breadth. It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that all round the world there are hotel and restaurant staff who's lives are just a tiny bit less shit because of the interfaces I've written. I would imagine if one had to manually reconcile EPOS, stock, reservations and property management systems 365 days a year it might be deemed mental cruelty Shocked

*Modesty is the last refuge of the incompetent.
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