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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:58 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:


Countries with a lot less going for them survive on their own, i see no reason why scotland shouldn't be able to do likewise.


Because the Scots independence voters are all feckless lefties, so that's half the country that'll be scrounging rather than generating wealth. In a population of only about 5 million Laughing

Venezuela has more going for it than Scotland. Or Easter Island for that matter Laughing
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 16:30 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:


Because the Scots independence voters are all feckless lefties,


I wish people would decide. Am I a feckless leftie or, as someone recently asserted, a far right wing bigot?

I'm confused.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 16:43 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:


Because the Scots independence voters are all feckless lefties,


I wish people would decide. Am I a feckless leftie or, as someone recently asserted, a far right wing bigot?

I'm confused.


I would class you as a nostalgic. Scottish independence for you only has plus sides. If it goes well you can feel proud and patriotic as a Scot. If it goes badly well you live in England so who cares?

Islander wrote:

Erm, the biggest item on any SNP manifesto is independence. Why would anyone vote for them if they were pro-union?


Loads of them do. Sturgeon herself even said she would encourage people who do not support independence to vote SNP.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 17:08 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:

Islander wrote:

Erm, the biggest item on any SNP manifesto is independence. Why would anyone vote for them if they were pro-union?


Loads of them do. Sturgeon herself even said she would encourage people who do not support independence to vote SNP.


I'd like some hard numbers on that rather than 'loads of them do'.

The SNP are a single issue party, their stated goal is Scottish independence. If you were a unionist and voted SNP then I'd say you'd have to be pretty hard of thinking - especially given the recent groundswell.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 17:09 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:
Erm, the biggest item on any SNP manifesto is independence. Why would anyone vote for them if they were pro-union?


Intimidation, peer-pressure... rigged postal votes* Laughing Laughing Laughing

We're almost admitting that the system of electing MPs to represent the people is broken if we have to resort to a referendum. Why have a dog and bark yourself?

On the other hand a vote allows people an out with "we hate the English enough to vote SNP but independence itself is a step too far!" which is back to my previous point: hating the English is one thing but independence is a vote on The Union.

If Scots are unhappy with their lot shouldn't they at least put the effort in to fix it rather than just doing a Cameron and fucking off? And that goes back to Im-a-Ridah's point about London Thinking

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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:10 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:


I'm confused.


And there's another reason the Scots won't make it on their own Laughing
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Islander
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PostPosted: 17:24 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
Islander wrote:
Erm, the biggest item on any SNP manifesto is independence. Why would anyone vote for them if they were pro-union?


Intimidation, peer-pressure... rigged postal votes* Laughing Laughing Laughing

We're almost admitting that the system of electing MPs to represent the people is broken if we have to resort to a referendum. Why have a dog and bark yourself?

On the other hand a vote allows people an out with "we hate the English enough to vote SNP but independence itself is a step too far!" which is back to my previous point: hating the English is one thing but independence is a vote on The Union.


Some matters need a public vote - Brexit was one, Scottish independence is another. You seemed to be pretty much pro-Brexit, if that had been left to the MPs we'd still be firmly in.

You keep bringing this whole 'Scots hate the English' rhetoric up. The vast majority of Scots don't hate the English although heaven knows, their history gives them pretty good cause to. This is about self rule - the independence voters don't care about the union.

What was it the Brexiteers used to say? Oh yes, suck it up, buttercup Razz


Easy-X wrote:
If Scots are unhappy with their lot shouldn't they at least put the effort in to fix it rather than just doing a Cameron and fucking off? And that goes back to Im-a-Ridah's point about London Thinking


It's been tried, It's been measured, it's been found wanting.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 18:05 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes, you're right. It's only been tried for around four Centuries, of course we should listen to the political opportunists wise SNP who've only been around for a few decades Rolling Eyes

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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 18:10 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:
Erm, the biggest item on any SNP manifesto is independence. Why would anyone vote for them if they were pro-union?

They have other policies for a start, and a vote for the SNP might lend support for a referendum but isn't an automatic expression of a desire to leave the UK.

Quote:
In 2011, when the Scottish Parliament elections saw the SNP get an absolute majority of seats (with around 45 per cent of the vote), support for independence was at the lowest level recorded by the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey (SSA) with just one in four Scots supporting it. Amongst those who voted SNP, over 40 per cent were not in favour of independence at the time.

https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/opinions/votes-snp-are-not-votes-independence
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 18:20 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:


What was it the Brexiteers used to say? Oh yes, suck it up, buttercup Razz


Suck what up? Has Scotland left the UK yet? Laughing
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 19:11 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:

What was it the Brexiteers used to say? Oh yes, suck it up, buttercup Razz
.


I might be wrong but the last 'Once in a generation' Scottish referendum was a vote to stay.

It very much strikes me as similar to the remain 'peoples vote' as in lets have another vote, and another until we get the result we want.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 19:22 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
Islander wrote:

What was it the Brexiteers used to say? Oh yes, suck it up, buttercup Razz
.


I might be wrong but the last 'Once in a generation' Scottish referendum was a vote to stay.

It very much strikes me as similar to the remain 'peoples vote' as in lets have another vote, and another until we get the result we want.


It was and things have moved on. There's a groundswell of support that can't be ignored - no matter how much Bozo wants to.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 19:24 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:

They have other policies for a start, and a vote for the SNP might lend support for a referendum but isn't an automatic expression of a desire to leave the UK.

Quote:
In 2011, when the Scottish Parliament elections saw the SNP get an absolute majority of seats (with around 45 per cent of the vote), support for independence was at the lowest level recorded by the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey (SSA) with just one in four Scots supporting it. Amongst those who voted SNP, over 40 per cent were not in favour of independence at the time.

https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/opinions/votes-snp-are-not-votes-independence


2011. Things have moved on since then. Also, the SNP is a single issue party no matter how people want to dress it up.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 19:32 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:
2011. Things have moved on since then. Also, the SNP is a single issue party no matter how people want to dress it up.

We’ll have to take your word for it but anyway, the 2011 data is still relevant wrt your rejection of my observation,

I wrote:
You’re assuming everyone who votes SNP or Green is pro-independence, which I doubt.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 19:33 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
Islander wrote:

What was it the Brexiteers used to say? Oh yes, suck it up, buttercup Razz
.


I might be wrong but the last 'Once in a generation' Scottish referendum was a vote to stay.

It very much strikes me as similar to the remain 'peoples vote' as in lets have another vote, and another until we get the result we want.


Exactly, although there is a slight difference. With the remainers it was a straight second attempt at getting what they want with nothing to risk losing for themselves. In the Scottish independence case the SNP are finished as a force if they stuff this second vote up. Personally I am in favour of the referendum [and I fully intend to campaign for remain], but it has to be on the Unionists time scale and the Unionists rules, and we achieve that by moving first. Bojo should offer the vote at the worst time for the SNP and rig that baby to hell. Allow Scots outside Scotland to vote, bar under 18s, refugees, EU nationals etc from voting. Make it very clear in advance what the deal rUK will be offering is and make it awful (£2000 for a visa, £1000 to drive a truck over the border, no use of the pound, canceling of all naval ship contracts, no overflight rights, no internet/fibreoptics through rUK to Scotland). Watch that smile get wiped off Sturgeons face.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 20:06 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Islander wrote:
2011. Things have moved on since then. Also, the SNP is a single issue party no matter how people want to dress it up.

We’ll have to take your word for it but anyway, the 2011 data is still relevant wrt your rejection of my observation,

I wrote:
You’re assuming everyone who votes SNP or Green is pro-independence, which I doubt.


If you vote for a single issue party then you should expect that issue to be a priority for them.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 20:13 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:

Exactly, although there is a slight difference. With the remainers it was a straight second attempt at getting what they want with nothing to risk losing for themselves. In the Scottish independence case the SNP are finished as a force if they stuff this second vote up. Personally I am in favour of the referendum [and I fully intend to campaign for remain], but it has to be on the Unionists time scale and the Unionists rules, and we achieve that by moving first. Bojo should offer the vote at the worst time for the SNP and rig that baby to hell. Allow Scots outside Scotland to vote, bar under 18s, refugees, EU nationals etc from voting. Make it very clear in advance what the deal rUK will be offering is and make it awful (£2000 for a visa, £1000 to drive a truck over the border, no use of the pound, canceling of all naval ship contracts, no overflight rights, no internet/fibreoptics through rUK to Scotland). Watch that smile get wiped off Sturgeons face.


You mean like they did with the original devolution vote in 1979? That's a political disgrace that no party will be in a rush to repeat.

Also, they can't. Scottish democracy and it's rules are a devolved matter - they can only interfere in a UK wide general election.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 20:13 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Can the First Minister and her majority party be “single issue”? How do other things get done? Or are you saying they don’t?
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Islander
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PostPosted: 20:19 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Can the First Minister and her majority party be “single issue”? How do other things get done? Or are you saying they don’t?


AH OK you want to play semantics do you? Of course they do - they have a manifesto just like any other political party but the declared intention of the SNP is to lead Scotland to self rule.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 20:32 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:


It was and things have moved on. There's a groundswell of support that can't be ignored - no matter how much Bozo wants to.


The thing most people don't throw up is the excellent marketing by Commrade Sturgeonetski.

The lassie can talk.

Her mentor/nemisis/under-the-table-BBF Salmond was a talker too. Never once did I witness him being Sat on his Arse by another MSP.

Whether the policies they proffer have any meat on their bones is what I doubt.

I'm sure Scotland COULD make their ends meet but it would be painful for the infirm, unemployed, mentally/physically challenged. The means to afford that would be reigned in.

There is potential for manufacturing, financial, hospitality, technology, and we have Fish and Coos, Tartan and Shortbread.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:

I'm sure Scotland COULD make their ends meet but it would be painful for the infirm, unemployed, mentally/physically challenged. The means to afford that would be reigned in.


In other words, they couldn't Laughing
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MCN
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PostPosted: 21:02 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
chickenstrip wrote:
MCN wrote:

I'm sure Scotland COULD make their ends meet but it would be painful for the infirm, unemployed, mentally/physically challenged. The means to afford that would be reigned in.


In other words, they couldn't Laughing


Mibby aye.
Mibby naw.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 21:13 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:
The lassie can talk.

Allegedly Sturgeon has had a free pass from the MSM with daily air time, using Covid updates to big herself up.

“Thank you, Nicola” Sick

https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,ifs-say-barnett-formula-leaves-spending-in-scotland-30-higher-per-person-than-in-england

Go, then. Good luck, seriously.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 21:33 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:


If Scots are unhappy with their lot shouldn't they at least put the effort in to fix it rather than just doing a Cameron and fucking off? And that goes back to Im-a-Ridah's point about London Thinking


The thing Scots are unhappy about is Westminster rule. How can we fix that? Seriously, a single party has been sent to Westminster with a supermajority. In what way can or do they influence what happens in Westminster?

I'd argue that the half dozen Conservative MPs have more influence than the 44 SNP ones. So do we say that the only way for Scots to influence Westminster politics is for Scotland to vote for the same party as rUK?

To extend the Cameron analogy, it's like when he went to the EU for a "better deal" and came back with??
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GettinBetter
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PostPosted: 21:44 - 12 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Didn't the Scots just have a referendum a few years back? (Oh, and people voted to stay in the Union)

Asking for a friend.

Is it a case of keep having a referendum until they get the result they want? That sounds like an EU strategy to me.
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 2 years, 347 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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