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I think SV650s are better than GSXR400s

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Musketeer
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PostPosted: 13:14 - 28 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Parts availability would be my main concern when buying GSXR400 or alike.. Personally I wouldn't buy it.
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Tdibs
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PostPosted: 01:03 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

When touring on my Sv650 vs mate on a gpz500 I could easily pull away from him exiting corners and on straights. Not to mention more modern tyres vs 18in rear on the gpz. okes lost out because they are simplistic worse option for today. Though I rate the gpz for being of the same class, I cant see why you would have one over a sv at all?

Op is trolling, but the boomers here will hate most of the now maturing riders who grew up riding Sv650's as their first big bike. Mostly 2stoke antique boomers raging over them too. Not our fault 2 strokes are a poor solution.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 02:00 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tdibs wrote:
Mostly 2stoke antique boomers raging over them too. Not our fault 2 strokes are a poor solution.


Poor solution to what? Methinks you're asking the wrong question Wink
Had an SV. Had 2Ts.
Much preferred 2Ts power delivery-wise. And who would have an SV over an RG500?! Get medication! Mr. Green
I hear 2Ts in non-bike applications are much cleaner than they used to be too.
But I'll happily wreck your planet to have my fun Twisted Evil
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 07:36 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
ThunderGuts wrote:


Maybe I'm missing something here, but what's the tyre width got to do with anything? The lean angle is about balancing the forces (i.e. the acceleration away from the straight line) when you go around a corner - I don't see how the tyre width comes into that?


Watch from 1:54 in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3-AE1yfibs

It's very interesting stuff. Not just this but all the physics surrounding bikes.

In many cases, you need a bigger contact patch for very good reason: i.e. the bike is capable of putting down a lot of power, and you don't want to break traction in the rain, or on the autobahn, or on the track, or in all sorts of situations where most of us don't ride. However, in most cases, it's my conjecture that if we take track riding at any level completely out of the equation, as well as things like riding on greasy roads or in the snow, then, on the roads we find in the south of England at least, on the days when we ride for leisure as people who are most likely average riders, we're probably only using a maximum of 40-60hp on the road, the vast majority of the time when riding (i.e. 95%+). I think this raises interesting implications about the relevance of the handling characteristics of a bike vs the engine.


Genuinely interesting stuff. I get the need for larger contact patches etc.. but I'd not thought about how the tyre width offsets the bike when leaning over.

Learn something new every day. Thumbs Up
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 08:40 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tdibs wrote:

Op is trolling, but the boomers here will hate most of the now maturing riders who grew up riding Sv650's as their first big bike. Mostly 2stoke antique boomers raging over them too. Not our fault 2 strokes are a poor solution.


Two strokes are superior in pretty much every way except emissions. If the same amount of development effort was put into two strokes as four strokes they'd be smaller lighter, more powerful and more economical than four strokes with the equivalent emissions.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 09:06 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tdibs wrote:
boomers


I'll have you know we are Gen X and not boomers.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 09:16 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

What made 4Ts make almost as much power than a 2T despite the 2T having two power strokes in the same period that a 4T only has one was materials science making valve gear and the like lighter and stronger to cope with higher revs.

Invariably you were still putting a 400cc 4T up against a 250cc 2T to gain parity.

More effort on scavaging of unburnt fuel and materials that can handle higher temps (so leaner mixtures can be used) and 2Ts would still be the winner because of the 2 power strokes to 1.

Oh, and 2Ts are lighter because the heads on them are much smaller.
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to v or not to v
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PostPosted: 09:33 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 stroke engines have a vastly shorter life span in my experience though.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 09:38 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

to v or not to v wrote:
2 stroke engines have a vastly shorter life span in my experience though.


Ask someone who had a ZXR400 how long the engines last. It's comparable to a RGV250.

Replacing the crank bearings and seals is a lot easier than rebuilding/replacing a damaged head.

Rings will need replacing on a similar interval (and is a peice of piss on a 2T) and shouldn't seize if you are ensuring you top up the 2T oil tank.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 11:15 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

to v or not to v wrote:
2 stroke engines have a vastly shorter life span in my experience though.


Yes but I could rebuild one in an afternoon using a socket set. You can't say that about many four strokes.
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Last edited by MarJay on 13:20 - 29 Apr 2021; edited 1 time in total
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:04 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but the loss of 2T motorcycles is a sad thing. No 4T is ever going to replicate that it seems. The Street Triple was the nearest I ever came to that kind of fun in a 4T, but that was more about how light and flickable they are than the power delivery. I am sure there are many of us who wonder just how good 2Ts would be now given continual development, and the same kind of advances in chassis etc that we've had with the 4s.

The only other 4Ts that can deliver as much sheer exhilaration are turbo bikes imo, but you quickly get to the point of just having too much with those, plus the added weight to bikes that are already at a disadvantage against 2s.
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 13:23 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:

The only other 4Ts that can deliver as much sheer exhilaration are turbo bikes imo, but you quickly get to the point of just having too much with those, plus the added weight to bikes that are already at a disadvantage against 2s.


I don't fully understand why with modern turbo technology we haven't seen small turbos on modern bikes. They have minimal lag these days and can provide a good spread of power. Surely they'd be a logical application? The bikes could be lighter and more agile for the same power, without the traditional disadvantages of turbos. Although one could argue the "drawbacks" are what made older turbos interesting.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:35 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I never understood why the major manufacturers dropped turbos, especially Kawasaki, who got it so right first time around. It had no drawbacks that I encountered compared to contemporary normally aspirated bikes, and unlike what I've read of its competitors of the time, it had enough of the turbo rush to make it fun.

Of course, turbochargers will always be added weight, but not every bike needs to be the most agile thing ever built, and they certainly could be improved a lot over those early ones as far as weight and agility goes. Good fuel consumption when used 'sensibly' too. I recorded something like 50mpg on a nearly all motorway trip cruising at speeds mostly around the 80-90 mark.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 14:06 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThunderGuts wrote:

I don't fully understand why with modern turbo technology we haven't seen small turbos on modern bikes. They have minimal lag these days and can provide a good spread of power. Surely they'd be a logical application? The bikes could be lighter and more agile for the same power, without the traditional disadvantages of turbos. Although one could argue the "drawbacks" are what made older turbos interesting.


Small turbocharged car engines are more for efficiency and emissions than power, although the marketing tends to focus on power and performance. Bike don't have to meet the same emissions standards, so there is no requirement for turbos.

They're tricky in all kinds of ways for bikes. Adds cost and complexity, packaging is difficult and safety is worse - they get hot and stay hot, people will end up touching them. Also fairly pointless for the performance benefit, when it's a lot easier to just fit a bigger engine. The difference in dimensions between a 600cc engine and a 1000cc engine is less than the size of a turbo. That's without considering turbo manifold, intake piping, intercooler, additional oil and water lines.

I doubt we're going to see a big renaiisance of turbos on bikes. By the time the emissions standards get round to making them an option, electric is going to be a thing.
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 14:24 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robby wrote:
ThunderGuts wrote:

I don't fully understand why with modern turbo technology we haven't seen small turbos on modern bikes. They have minimal lag these days and can provide a good spread of power. Surely they'd be a logical application? The bikes could be lighter and more agile for the same power, without the traditional disadvantages of turbos. Although one could argue the "drawbacks" are what made older turbos interesting.


Small turbocharged car engines are more for efficiency and emissions than power, although the marketing tends to focus on power and performance. Bike don't have to meet the same emissions standards, so there is no requirement for turbos.

They're tricky in all kinds of ways for bikes. Adds cost and complexity, packaging is difficult and safety is worse - they get hot and stay hot, people will end up touching them. Also fairly pointless for the performance benefit, when it's a lot easier to just fit a bigger engine. The difference in dimensions between a 600cc engine and a 1000cc engine is less than the size of a turbo. That's without considering turbo manifold, intake piping, intercooler, additional oil and water lines.

I doubt we're going to see a big renaiisance of turbos on bikes. By the time the emissions standards get round to making them an option, electric is going to be a thing.


Not to mention how many people will highside around corners when coming on boost.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:26 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robby wrote:


Small turbocharged car engines are more for efficiency and emissions than power, although the marketing tends to focus on power and performance. Bike don't have to meet the same emissions standards, so there is no requirement for turbos.

They're tricky in all kinds of ways for bikes. Adds cost and complexity, packaging is difficult and safety is worse - they get hot and stay hot, people will end up touching them. Also fairly pointless for the performance benefit, when it's a lot easier to just fit a bigger engine. The difference in dimensions between a 600cc engine and a 1000cc engine is less than the size of a turbo. That's without considering turbo manifold, intake piping, intercooler, additional oil and water lines.

I doubt we're going to see a big renaiisance of turbos on bikes. By the time the emissions standards get round to making them an option, electric is going to be a thing.


With bikes though, it would be more about the fun factor turbos can deliver. Get them right, and you can have a dose of that without them being too intimidating. And jeez, as if a nearly 200bhp sports bike isn't intimidating enough for some! But what I liked about the Kawasaki was you got the best of the rush in the midrange area, say 6 -8k rpm, rather than a step at around 7k when you're already doing silly speeds.

The high temperatures turbo units reach was never a problem as it was so tucked away. I remember rainy days when you could see the reflection of its red glow on the wet road surface though! But I never heard of anyone getting badly burned by one, or any other turbo vehicle for that matter. I guess there'll always be some idiots around, but considering you can get a nasty burn from a hot exhaust, which on bikes is very much exposed...

Again, with performance, its more about the characteristic of how they deliver the power rather than outright performance. I much preferred my turbo to my mate's GPz1100, despite similar performance figures.

Complexity and expense is probably one reason why manufacturers don't bother anymore, but again, I don't think the Kawasaki was any much more expensive in the showrooms than the 1100. Maybe they took a bit of a hit on profit margins to achieve that, don't know. I think it was built in smaller numbers too.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 20:57 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

xX-Alex-Xx wrote:


Not to mention how many people will highside around corners when coming on boost.


So you've seen this video then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoejxTyXCFQ

Shocked
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:08 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
xX-Alex-Xx wrote:


Not to mention how many people will highside around corners when coming on boost.


So you've seen this video then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoejxTyXCFQ

Shocked


Not quite sure why he lost it there. Sounded like he was off the power on a pretty straight section, certainly not going at all fast.
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 21:13 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


Not quite sure why he lost it there. Sounded like he was off the power on a pretty straight section, certainly not going at all fast.


He says the engine compression-locked. But the first time I saw it, when he crashed I could have sworn the bike had kicked him off when the turbo came on.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:23 - 29 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:


He says the engine compression-locked. But the first time I saw it, when he crashed I could have sworn the bike had kicked him off when the turbo came on.


I replayed it a few times. It's plain to hear the revs falling away just before the bike goes over. Sounded to me like he rolled the throttle off, definitely not due to boost coming in. I'm sure you could find a better video than that if you want to show one of these monster turbo homebuilds catching someone out Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:24 - 30 Apr 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

xX-Alex-Xx wrote:

Not to mention how many people will highside around corners when coming on boost.


Cornering is not really what turbo bikes are about. They're not really practical for everyday use if you have them dialled up to high boost, sure, but they don't have to be completely uncontrollable animals either, don't have to be on/off switches where the power is concerned.

The best thing about them is they can make straight roads interesting! Laughing
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struan80
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PostPosted: 20:38 - 03 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

400 without a second thought. I guess the SV would be comfier and brisker at low revs. Spare parts bla bla/ Likely be more reliable than an old 400. Still, I'd go for the 400.

To be honest I like every bike, scooters, choppers you name it I'll see its positives. Harley's piss me off a bit because it's like trying to access the mysteries of time getting an accurate BHP estimation. I also dislike overly clean bikes.
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Pigeon
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PostPosted: 01:13 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
SV650 with sorted suspension is a weapon. No matter what year, shape or what have you.


I ran a curvy with linear springs + heavier fork oil + braded lines + HH pads + Hayabusa rear shock.
Super cheap upgrades really.

It was a bit stiff, but mighty on corner entry + exit.......but lacked 50bhp everywhere else.

I would do people on the brakes or undercut + punch out the corner. But after 3rd gear. Forget it.

I lacked talent of course.

But it was entertaining on a very short circuit.

Never owned gsxr400. Too fat.
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