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Islander
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PostPosted: 11:32 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
What I would like to know is how many people actually died of covid in the UK. Not this 30 day positive covid test crap where you could have been hit by a bus on day 29 and therefore have died of covid and not because 10 tonnes of red metal reduced you to pulp.


Erm that wouldn't be ascribed to Covid.

Also, if someone has an underlying health condition and under non-pandemic conditions could expect many years of normal productive life, catches Covid and the underlying health condition exacerbates it and they die, the cause was still covid.
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 11:55 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pigeon wrote:



Not really sure what to say. Facts are India used Ivermectin and numbers were low for as long as they did. They rose 10 weeks after they stopped.


Does that mean that if I stop eating marmite on my toast then I'll get cancer, because I haven't had cancer yet and it'd be nice not to?
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 12:39 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
What I would like to know is how many people actually died of covid in the UK. Not this 30 day positive covid test crap where you could have been hit by a bus on day 29 and therefore have died of covid and not because 10 tonnes of red metal reduced you to pulp.


Erm that wouldn't be ascribed to Covid.

Also, if someone has an underlying health condition and under non-pandemic conditions could expect many years of normal productive life, catches Covid and the underlying health condition exacerbates it and they die, the cause was still covid.


You're probably right but reading the 'proof' clauses I'm not sure it is as cut and dried as you indicate.

All deaths with a positive specimen (including at post-mortem) are counted regardless of the cause of death, and then restricted based on the time frames listed above.


Note the 'regardless of cause of death' according to that statement and only restricted on time frame.

From PHE.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/916035/RA_Technical_Summary_-_PHE_Data_Series_COVID_19_Deaths_20200812.pdf
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 13:01 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could just look at the excess deaths since COVID started compared to the average.

Weill over 100,000 and nothing attributed to flu in the same period....
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Islander
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PostPosted: 13:08 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Islander wrote:


Erm that wouldn't be ascribed to Covid.

Also, if someone has an underlying health condition and under non-pandemic conditions could expect many years of normal productive life, catches Covid and the underlying health condition exacerbates it and they die, the cause was still covid.


You're probably right but reading the 'proof' clauses I'm not sure it is as cut and dried as you indicate.

All deaths with a positive specimen (including at post-mortem) are counted regardless of the cause of death, and then restricted based on the time frames listed above.


Note the 'regardless of cause of death' according to that statement and only restricted on time frame.

From PHE.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/916035/RA_Technical_Summary_-_PHE_Data_Series_COVID_19_Deaths_20200812.pdf


I would have thought that the only reason for testing post mortem would be if it were clearly a respiratory cause of death rather than bus tyre tracks but it is a bit more nuanced than that.

Full quote from document above:

"There are 2 definitions of a death in a person with COVID-19 in England, one broader measure and one measure reflecting current trends:

1) A death in a person with a laboratory-confirmed positive COVID-19 and either:
died within (equal to or less than) 60 days of the first specimen date
or
died more than 60 days after the first specimen date, only if COVID-19 is mentioned on the death certificate

2) A death in a person with a laboratory-confirmed positive COVID-19 test and died within (equal to or less than) 28 days of the first positive specimen date.

The daily number represents new deaths reported to PHE in the 24 hours up to 5pm the previous day. Report date does not necessarily equate to date of death as it may take up to a week for deaths to be reported to PHE.

The PHE data series does not include deaths where COVID-19 is mentioned on the death certificate but a laboratory test was not carried out or failed. All deaths with a positive specimen (including at post-mortem) are counted regardless of the cause of death, and then restricted based on the time frames listed above. This aims to provide
the most comprehensive measure of mortality burden possible."


Reading through the paper, it's clear that the aim is to capture covid related deaths as accurately as possible. We're talking about clinicians here and they're going to want accurate figures.

I'm pretty sure that 'regardless of the cause of death' means disease, When a doctor signs a death certificate, they have to state a primary cause of death. Now it may be that someone dies a 'normal' cardiac death in their sleep but has a significant underlying condition. The rules they follow mean that the underlying condition will be stated on the certificate as a primary cause rather than using the vague 'natural causes'. I had this explained to me by my GP when my mother died a few years back. She died in her sleep but had vascular dementia and that was the cause given on the death certificate.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:27 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:


Yes they have. Full double blinded trials. They were all granted emergency approval for use.


No, not FULL trials, because FULL trials are normally carried out over a much longer term. The time period itself is usually part of a trial to detect any long-term effects. We do not know about whether there will be any yet, because the long term normally studied hasn't happened.

"Emergency" approval I'd guess was just the forgoing of the long term aspect of trials, which can be equally as important as short term ones. A risk has been taken. All choices have associated risk of one kind or another where health matters are concerned. The individual must judge for themselves what level of risk there is to the choices they make after consideration of the advice and information given.

If you are advised to have a treatment or operation in normal circumstances, even whether it is considered to be potentially life saving, you still have the choice of whether to go ahead with it or not. I don't think anything should change in the case of Covid vaccinations.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 14:33 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shite
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Last edited by MCN on 14:36 - 18 May 2021; edited 1 time in total
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:34 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
You could just look at the excess deaths since COVID started compared to the average.

Weill over 100,000 and nothing attributed to flu in the same period....


Less than the flu wave of 1951 apparently. It's really not that many in a population of 60+ million. These excess mortality causes come around now and again. They generally don't stay forever, treated or otherwise.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3294686/

What has been lost this time around is perspective.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 14:36 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless you are found to be mentally incapable of making a decision by a court. In addition courts can also make the decision on behalf of children.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:39 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Unless you are found to be mentally incapable of making a decision by a court. In addition courts can also make the decision on behalf of children.


Barely worth mentioning.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 14:46 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
What I would like to know is how many people actually died of covid in the UK. Not this 30 day positive covid test crap where you could have been hit by a bus on day 29 and therefore have died of covid and not because 10 tonnes of red metal reduced you to pulp.


Erm that wouldn't be ascribed to Covid.

Also, if someone has an underlying health condition and under non-pandemic conditions could expect many years of normal productive life, catches Covid and the underlying health condition exacerbates it and they die, the cause was still covid.


That's not strictly true.

We rely on incompetent meediays to report a lot of the shite we see and read.

Dying OF covid19 is not strictly the same as dying WITH covid19.

We need to be careful to make that distinction.

If one has prostrate cancer.
Is then hit by a bus and killed.

One won't have died of prostrate cancer.

One will have died OF Bus but at the same time also had or was suffering from prostrate cancer.

Agree the COVID could exacerbate existing correlated conditions.

Some fuqwit 'medikal person' in Murica actually replied to some fuqwit journalist that anyone who dies and has been diagnosed as having Covid19 will have CoD CV19 on death certificate. Bullshite.

We all know smoking drastically shortens life expectancy and has serious health issues.

Doctors never wrote CoD Smoking Tobacco on the death certificate.

I don't think the underlying CoD was every recorded in that way.
Possible from reading a person's medical records or PM.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:52 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCN wrote:

If one has prostrate cancer.
Is then hit by a bus and killed.

One won't have died of prostrate cancer.


Presumably the cancer just caused the lying in the path of the bus, but the bus hitting them caused the death?
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Islander
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PostPosted: 15:18 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:


Yes they have. Full double blinded trials. They were all granted emergency approval for use.


No, not FULL trials, because FULL trials are normally carried out over a much longer term. The time period itself is usually part of a trial to detect any long-term effects. We do not know about whether there will be any yet, because the long term normally studied hasn't happened.

"Emergency" approval I'd guess was just the forgoing of the long term aspect of trials, which can be equally as important as short term ones. A risk has been taken. All choices have associated risk of one kind or another where health matters are concerned. The individual must judge for themselves what level of risk there is to the choices they make after consideration of the advice and information given.

If you are advised to have a treatment or operation in normal circumstances, even whether it is considered to be potentially life saving, you still have the choice of whether to go ahead with it or not. I don't think anything should change in the case of Covid vaccinations.


Read again. Full double blinded trials. Those phases of the trials were indeed extensive and full. The remainder of the final testing phase is ongoing under the emergency approval.

The MRHA were kept fully informed of results and developments and this enabled them to be ahead of the game when it came to granting approval.

It's a tribute to medical science really.

Yes, they give you all of the information before they ask you if you want to go ahead the same as any other medical procedure.

I've had both of mine and I'm happy about that. Thumbs Up
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Islander
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PostPosted: 15:18 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
MCN wrote:

If one has prostrate cancer.
Is then hit by a bus and killed.

One won't have died of prostrate cancer.


Presumably the cancer just caused the lying in the path of the bus, but the bus hitting them caused the death?


Beat me to it Laughing
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Islander
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PostPosted: 15:20 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCN wrote:
Islander wrote:


Erm that wouldn't be ascribed to Covid.

Also, if someone has an underlying health condition and under non-pandemic conditions could expect many years of normal productive life, catches Covid and the underlying health condition exacerbates it and they die, the cause was still covid.


That's not strictly true.

We rely on incompetent meediays to report a lot of the shite we see and read.

Dying OF covid19 is not strictly the same as dying WITH covid19.

We need to be careful to make that distinction.

If one has prostrate cancer.
Is then hit by a bus and killed.

One won't have died of prostrate cancer.

One will have died OF Bus but at the same time also had or was suffering from prostrate cancer.

Agree the COVID could exacerbate existing correlated conditions.

Some fuqwit 'medikal person' in Murica actually replied to some fuqwit journalist that anyone who dies and has been diagnosed as having Covid19 will have CoD CV19 on death certificate. Bullshite.

We all know smoking drastically shortens life expectancy and has serious health issues.

Doctors never wrote CoD Smoking Tobacco on the death certificate.

I don't think the underlying CoD was every recorded in that way.
Possible from reading a person's medical records or PM.


Read my second post on that for clarification Wink
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:24 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:


No, not FULL trials, because FULL trials are normally carried out over a much longer term. The time period itself is usually part of a trial to detect any long-term effects. We do not know about whether there will be any yet, because the long term normally studied hasn't happened.


Read again. Full double blinded trials. Those phases of the trials were indeed extensive and full.


You finally specified; well done! Smile
But FULL trials still include the long term. We do not know whether there will be any adverse effects at a later date. Or indeed, currently unsuspected positive benefits.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 15:31 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:


Read my second post on that for clarification Wink


FFS. Of course I never read your 2nd post.

I'm blaming typos and smartphone.

So there.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 15:34 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:

You finally specified; well done! Smile
But FULL trials still include the long term. We do not know whether there will be any adverse effects at a later date. Or indeed, currently unsuspected positive benefits.


Well just to be safe, since I've been vaccinated, Ive cancelled my telly licence and have lined my crashing helmet with Bacofoil.

They'll not get me with their 5G VHF.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 15:38 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:


Read again. Full double blinded trials. Those phases of the trials were indeed extensive and full.


You finally specified; well done! Smile
But FULL trials still include the long term. We do not know whether there will be any adverse effects at a later date. Or indeed, currently unsuspected positive benefits.


I specified in the original post if you read it correctly Razz
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Islander
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PostPosted: 15:39 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCN wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:

You finally specified; well done! Smile
But FULL trials still include the long term. We do not know whether there will be any adverse effects at a later date. Or indeed, currently unsuspected positive benefits.


Well just to be safe, since I've been vaccinated, Ive cancelled my telly licence and have lined my crashing helmet with Bacofoil.

They'll not get me with their 5G VHF.


How many copies of Windows have you bought?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:41 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

MCN wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:

You finally specified; well done! Smile
But FULL trials still include the long term. We do not know whether there will be any adverse effects at a later date. Or indeed, currently unsuspected positive benefits.


Well just to be safe, since I've been vaccinated, Ive cancelled my telly licence and have lined my crashing helmet with Bacofoil.

They'll not get me with their 5G VHF.


Scotland has Comrade Sturgeon; Covid is insignificant by comparison Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:42 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Islander wrote:


I specified in the original post if you read it correctly Razz


In which case I apologise. I have not yet found reason to more than skim read your posts Razz
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Islander
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PostPosted: 17:47 - 18 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Islander wrote:


I specified in the original post if you read it correctly Razz


In which case I apologise. I have not yet found reason to more than skim read your posts Razz


Well at least that's more than I do with yours... Razz Laughing
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 12:52 - 19 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the bleeding hearts are saying we HAVE to give our vaccines away to the poor countries. Well fine but some of them can't even use what they have already.

Malawi burns thousands of Covid-19 vaccine doses

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-57168841
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 19:22 - 19 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got my first jab today. Other than a distinct lack of 5G reception, nothing to report. Disappointed in not being able to telepathically link to Bill Gates to tell him Windows is shit. Pretty lass with a monumental chest interested in my bike to chat to while I waited the requested 15 mins as a bonus, though this is not a commonly reported side effect. My missus would not have approved of me taking her for a test ride though.
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