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Is thermal throttling normal under stress?

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DUCAUDI
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PostPosted: 06:13 - 27 May 2021    Post subject: Is thermal throttling normal under stress? Reply with quote

Hi guys hoping someone can help me here.



Old geezer tech enthusiast returning to tinkering after a prolonged hiatus so forgive me if I'm not up to speed (much like my CPU).



I just swapped out my old 9600K for a used 9900KS I got on eBay.  I wanted to speed up my video editing and encoding without having to swap out the mobo (not ready for a complete system upgrade at this stage), so I figured this would be the best possible CPU compatible with my current setup, one came up reasonably-priced on eBay so I took a punt on it hoping the extra cores and clock speed would help.



I've been doing some benchmarks and stress tests and the CPU is getting to 100c and throttling almost straight away.  It sits at around 40c at idle.



Currently I have XMP enabled on my MSI Z390-A Pro but not OC Genie (enabling OC Genie would cause it to freeze loading Windows and restart on a continual loop, only way to come out of the loop was to clear the CMOS, tried enabling it several times again but always freezes requiring a CMOS clear).  Maybe someone can steer me in the right direction regarding OC Genie also?  No manual overclocking settings have been changed either.



Sorry to bore you with a lengthy post but I want to give as much background as possible.



It might be worth mentioning that the 9600K had previously been installed in August 2019 using Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut liquid metal compound.  Surprisingly when I came to remove the cooler (360mm Corsair AIO) the thermal compound was CRUSTY AF.  Dunno why, but I was kinda expecting it to still be fluid and that I would have to be careful removing the cooler not to let it drip all over the place.  Crusty compound was VERY heavily stuck / baked on to both surfaces.  I tried giving it some elbow grease with isopropyl alcohol and some blue roll but it wasn't coming off.  Had to resort to a Dremel with a nylon version of a wire brush/steel wool kind of attachment but not as harsh as it's made of nylon but that kind of thing.  Even using this took some time getting it all off.  Afterwards I used a soft buffer with some polishing material to buff it up nicely and get it really nice and smooth again.  It's not a mirror surface but as far as I can tell it's dead smooth and any thermal compound should not have any problems filling the microscopic imperfections there.



I installed the 9900KS with Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut thermal paste this time because how crusty the Conductonaut had gone didn't inspire me with much confidence to use it again in the future!



Now I'm throttling at full load and the thing is not even overclocked.  Is this normal?  I done some benchmarks before and after and it's performing better than the old 9600K even though it's throttling.  Unfortunately I forgot to monitor any temps before the swap so have got nothing to compare it to in that regard but I'm pretty sure it wasn't throttling before.



So is this normal to throttle like this for a 9900KS?  Is it just because it runs so fast and so hot out of the box that's normal?  Even with a 360 AIO?



Please help!
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UncleFester
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PostPosted: 06:50 - 27 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

40 is quite warm at idle. I wonder if you've got a fooked CPU or a knackered cooler.

I'd be expecting high 20s / very low 30s at idle and a max of 75/80 under load. Stress tests will send it higher but you shouldn't be running anything in normal operation that hits it that hard.

If it's cooking the paste into crust then either too much paste / not making good connection with cooler base or cooler simply isn't taking the heat away effectively.

What cooler are you using? *AIO 360

https://forum.corsair.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190710

I'd say still too high.
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 08:17 - 27 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

How's the airflow through the case? Same number of fans blowing out as there are pulling in?

Other thing could be it's not tensioned equally across the heatspreader on the CPU. Stupid question = the pump for the cooler is connected and working?
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PostPosted: 17:41 - 27 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 9900K is 18 degrees, idle on a Z390 board also, but under water.

https://www.bikechatforums.com/files/cpu_158.png

Under load (well, running Destiny 2 at max@1440p whilst streaming)

https://www.bikechatforums.com/files/cpuwarm.png

Its gonna be a cooling/airflow issue, or a fucked CPU... likely the former, make sure your BIOS max speeds the AIO if you are running one, don't let it be smart, just full send, every time.

Before I changed to full water, I used to see 60+, running it full time at 60 would be fine, but that is too warm for me.

Check airflow, should really leave from the back and top, drawin from bottom and front, but your case may have specifics.
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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PostPosted: 19:56 - 27 May 2021    Post subject: Re: Is thermal throttling normal under stress? Reply with quote

TravisBickle wrote:
Stuff


May be a bit of a redundant question, but when you reinstalled your AIO did you reverse the fan orientation by mistake and maybe it's that your PC is now trying to constantly recycle it's own hot air that is the problem?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 22:43 - 27 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you went from a 9600K with a TDP of 95 Watts to a 9900KS with a TDP of 127 Watts.... hmmm..... Wink How old is this cooling system? Sealed systems don't last forever. I mention this as the thermal compound does go crumbly but it takes a while.

When you're at the white-hot end of PC performance you have to take a bit more care with all the variables. Have you got the cooler pump on a fixed 12V output and the fans on mobo-control? Did you clean the CPU and heatsink surfaces adequately? Are you using decent thermal compound and not something that's been sat in the back of a drawer for 5 years... etc.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 23:30 - 27 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paddy. wrote:
My 9900K is 18 degrees, idle on a Z390 board also, but under water.


What's your room temperature? 18°C, I presume, as you can't cool stuff under the ambient temperature without refrigeration. Thinking

Anyway, OP, a desktop PC should not thermal throttle. There's either something wrong or the CPU cooler is insufficient.

You say you use a AIO cooler, is the pump working/plugged in properly? It does sound like the pump is not moving the coolant around.
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DUCAUDI
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PostPosted: 03:40 - 29 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all for you input and helpful comments. Sorry I didn't want to seem ungrateful by not responding but it's been a manic few days at work!



UncleBFester wrote:
If it's cooking the paste into crust then either too much paste / not making good connection with cooler base or cooler simply isn't taking the heat away effectively.


I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. The temps were acceptable before I swapped the CPUs, so the issue about the thermal compound being crusty certainly wasn't causing any major problems before. It's only now I've cleaned everything up and reapplied normal paste I'm getting the problems. Adding too much paste wouldn't cause it to overheat from what I've seen on YouTube, it simply splurges out the side.



xX-Alex-Xx wrote:
How's the airflow through the case? Same number of fans blowing out as there are pulling in?

Other thing could be it's not tensioned equally across the heatspreader on the CPU. Stupid question = the pump for the cooler is connected and working?


Case airflow is excellent, it's a Corsair 750D airflow edition with 10x ML case fans fitted (5 intake, 5 exhaust). I have to be honest my first thought was the same as you and maybe the coldplate of the cooler wasn't making good contact as the temps would ramp up instantly the second you put it under load. If it were a fan related issue surely the temp would gradually climb over time. So my thoughts were with the coldplate not disapating from the IHS, which turned out to be true but for different reasons, more on that later...



Paddy. wrote:
Its gonna be a cooling/airflow issue, or a fucked CPU... likely the former, make sure your BIOS max speeds the AIO if you are running one, don't let it be smart, just full send, every time.


Yep done that. I reset the BIOS settings back to default and put all fans on max. No change! Temp still spikes from 40c to 100c almost instantly when initiating a load pointing at the cooler coldplate. I later found out though that the pump speed is not controlled by the PWM headers. More on that later...



Fat Angry Scotsman wrote:
TravisBickle wrote:
Stuff


May be a bit of a redundant question, but when you reinstalled your AIO did you reverse the fan orientation by mistake and maybe it's that your PC is now trying to constantly recycle it's own hot air that is the problem?


Nope, everything went back as it was before. Only difference was I swapped my old fan hub for one that can accept more fans than the old one but wired them all in the same way as before and fan orientation was unchanged.



Easy-X wrote:
So you went from a 9600K with a TDP of 95 Watts to a 9900KS with a TDP of 127 Watts.... hmmm..... Wink How old is this cooling system? Sealed systems don't last forever. I mention this as the thermal compound does go crumbly but it takes a while.

When you're at the white-hot end of PC performance you have to take a bit more care with all the variables. Have you got the cooler pump on a fixed 12V output and the fans on mobo-control? Did you clean the CPU and heatsink surfaces adequately? Are you using decent thermal compound and not something that's been sat in the back of a drawer for 5 years... etc.


I take your point. There's a good 30% increase in heat output there huh? Having said that the Corsair H150i Pro 360mm AIO should be more than sufficient to cope with even this processor. It's around 18 months to 2 years old now and was installed with liquid metal thermal compound on the IHS (not de-lidded). I knew it was overkill for a 9600K at the time but I think I knew I'd eventually upgrade the CPU at a later date so went with something that could cope with a larger thermal output. I cleaned the IHS thoroughly with IPA. I tried to do the same on the the surface of the cooler but it had to be ground down and re-buffed/polished as it had gone crusty as fuck. From what I can tell though it wasn't the thermal compound that had gone crusty. I mean that had all dried up (for some reason I was still expecting the liquid metal to still be liquid! I wasn't expecting it to be dry). But the cooler coldplate is copper, the IHS on the CPU is aluminium and god knows what metals are used in the liquid metal compound. From what I can tell it was a chemical reaction that has eaten into the surface of the coldplate and corroded/oxidised, it was very hard to remove the cooler from the IHS it's almost like it was welded onto it. Took some brute force to seperate them from one another. That's why it wouldn't come clean with simple elbow grease. Thank god I had my Dremel to hand. Thermal compound I used was from what research I done when I bought it a couple of years ago was the best on the market at the time (best thermal conductivity without going liquid metal) but yeah to be honest it has sat for 2 years unused but it seemed to spread ok when I applied it to the CPU so I'm thinking that's probably ok.
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DUCAUDI
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PostPosted: 03:55 - 29 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the way I had my fans set up was...

CPU fan header on the motherboard gives PWM output to the fan hub.

All fans (the three on the AIO and all the case fans too) plugged into the fan hub.

So basically the one fan header on the motherboard is giving PWM to the hub and that's then sending the same PWM out to all the fans connected to it.

So as soon as the three CPU cooler fans start to ramp up by being controlled by the motherboard, all the case fans do the same to match.

Seems strange? I know a lot of people choose to use the case fan header on the motherboard and then connect the fan hub to that and have the CPU fans controlled seperately but here's my theory...

Given that all the fans in the case and on the CPU cooler are the same Corsair ML series...

My theory is that 10 fans spinning at a given speed are likely to be little to no different to 1 fan spinning at the same given speed.

Consider 10 people whispering in a room compared to just one person wispering. The extra 9 people don't actually make it any louder, it's just overlapped. 10 people whispering at the same noise level as each other are going to be much quieter than just one person talking normally.

So when the CPU demands more cooling and ramps up the CPU fans, the case fans follow suit. In theory not actually adding much if any extra noise.

I'm pretty sure 10 fans spinning at 50% will create less noise than one fan spinning at 80%.

One thing I wasn't aware of is, I haven't proven this conclusively yet... but it APPEARS the pump speed is not controlled by the PWM input from the motherboard header (via the hub). APPARENTLY it's supposed to control itself and ramp up automatically when the temp gets hotter and can be manually changed using the iCUE software.


I noticed it was only spinning at around 1100rpm on the iCUE SOFTWARE which is about only a third of it's max speed. When I disconnected the PWM input to the fan hub all the fans in the case ramped up to 100% (because they were still getting SATA power but no info as to how fast to spin so just defaulted to 100%) however the pump speed did not increase. I can change it manually in the iCUE software but it seems a bit jank and I don't trust the software fully. Might uninstall it and reinstall it.

So I'm not sure if the settings for controlling the pump speed were changed when I swapped the CPU and therefore had to reset the BIOS settings... or indeed whether this has always been the case spinning at a third speed the whole time but because I only had a 9600K before it was able to keep it under control and never presented a problem.

So yeah, manually changing that in the iCUE software does indeed take the pump speed up to max and idle is now around 30c (yay). Still sitting at around 80c on full load which I feel is still a bit high but then again, you have to remember this is a KS! Although it's not currently overclocked.

On that note, I wonder if the instant temp spikes were what was causing the OC Genie to freeze when I tried activating it before.

Some food for thought and some things to tinker with...

Might just go back to air cooling and get that big fuck off jobbie from Noctua. According to LTT it outperforms even 360mm AIO coolers!
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 10:10 - 29 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the temps are jumping suddenly it could be an issue with the heatspreader on top of the processor not making good contact with the CPU itself.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 10:51 - 29 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regards to case / fan designage (? is that a word ?) back in the day one would have case fans drawing air in and/or blowing it out. CPU & GPU fans would just be internal and merely recycle the air in the case.

The issue now is that rad fans are doing double-duty as case and CPU fans. So your CPU is hot? Ramp the CPU fan speed up, easy. Okay but what if the system temperature is hot from the GPU (assuming you haven't water cooled that as well!) but the CPU is doing okay?

As an aside I try and aim for neutral - and failing that positive - pressure when it comes to air flow so 3 fans drawing air in should be balanced by 3 or more fans to blow hot air out. On principle more air = more cooling but negative pressure means every crack and seam in the case will collect dust which looks untidy Smile

Just things to consider as they only really affect the top end builds.
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UncleFester
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PostPosted: 11:26 - 29 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't care for cooling radiators that sit inside cases. You're either heating up the case by drawing radiator warmed air into it ( that heats up other air cooled things inside the case) or you're pulling warm case air through the radiator ( which spoils the cooling).

Either way it's not efficient cooling.
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 15:21 - 29 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

UncleBFester wrote:
I don't care for cooling radiators that sit inside cases. You're either heating up the case by drawing radiator warmed air into it ( that heats up other air cooled things inside the case) or you're pulling warm case air through the radiator ( which spoils the cooling).

Either way it's not efficient cooling.


It's not AS efficient having the rad pull through heat from the case, but it's a matter of 5 degrees or so. It's especially less of a worry when you're running a 360mm rad.
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DUCAUDI
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PostPosted: 16:12 - 29 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
The issue now is that rad fans are doing double-duty as case and CPU fans. So your CPU is hot? Ramp the CPU fan speed up, easy. Okay but what if the system temperature is hot from the GPU (assuming you haven't water cooled that as well!) but the CPU is doing okay?


GPU has a built-in AIO also (MSI 2080 Sea Hawk X) that also acts as a case exhaust out the back so yeah, internal case temps should be fairly close to ambient.
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PostPosted: 23:01 - 30 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

TravisBickle wrote:
GPU has a built-in AIO also (MSI 2080 Sea Hawk X) that also acts as a case exhaust out the back so yeah, internal case temps should be fairly close to ambient.


Get rid of that. I bought that card, I have since ripped it off and put a proper cooler on it. Absolutely terrible temps.
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UncleFester
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PostPosted: 07:24 - 31 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

xX-Alex-Xx wrote:
UncleBFester wrote:
I don't care for cooling radiators that sit inside cases. You're either heating up the case by drawing radiator warmed air into it ( that heats up other air cooled things inside the case) or you're pulling warm case air through the radiator ( which spoils the cooling).

Either way it's not efficient cooling.


It's not AS efficient having the rad pull through heat from the case, but it's a matter of 5 degrees or so. It's especially less of a worry when you're running a 360mm rad.


What's the point of all this shit if it isn't efficient. Lack of efficiency usually equates to noise. Cannot abide a Chinook under my desk no matter how cool it looks.


If you're running a radiator based system you want that radiator in the coolest airflow position possible.
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 11:48 - 31 May 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

The end goal isn't to get the processor to as low as possible, so a couple of degrees here or there isn't an issue.
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PostPosted: 07:55 - 02 Jun 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dug out my pics of the 2080 sea hawk strip down. This is after 1 week of being installed as I wasn't happy with the temps.

The red heat pads on there were brittle. Just cracked off rather than peeled. Suggest you change it or full water it, the Corsair block for founders 2080 is what I used.
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DUCAUDI
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PostPosted: 01:17 - 05 Jun 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tha'ts cool thanks for the heads-up.

What sort of temps were you getting though? I have to say I haven't noticed any alarming temps from the GPU under normal workloads and the games I do tend to play these days aren't very graphically demanding! Although some of the video editing I do does utilise the GPU. My college buddies and I were playing Valheim but are finished with that now and are not on to Dread Hunger, mixed in with the occasional Zero-K (more CPU intensive).
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PostPosted: 15:08 - 05 Jun 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

~80.

Anything over 65/70 I care about, even at full beans nothing hits 70.

Just felt that card was a little undercooled, took about 100ml of liquid out when taken apart, it was OK, but man it just didn't do the job, MSI responded and asked about how it was used/age, they didn't actually care, they asked questions and never responded again Smile
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bladerunner
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PostPosted: 00:41 - 06 Jun 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a 7th gen i7k.....what I didn't know is when ordering it with a std i7 cooler...well it wasn't up for the job! some vids would edit great when new, then it would act like only 1 core was doing the job! 4 years later I added a good air cooler ( didn't want to go lc again even tho it worked for years) and a change of heat paste had it singing like a pro! CHECK the heat paste is new AND the cooler is making perfect contact! failing that its a cpu issue ( half fried) or psu issue usually
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