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Nobby the Bastard
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JackButler
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Islander
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Pigeon
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| Kawasaki Jimbo |
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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 Posted: 22:43 - 12 Jul 2021  Post subject: |
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So you’re fully supportive of the lockdowns, PPEs, the NHS response and vaccinations because your numbers indicate it all worked?
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Pigeon
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| Posted: 23:28 - 12 Jul 2021 Post subject: |
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| Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | So you’re fully supportive of the lockdowns, PPEs, the NHS response and vaccinations because your numbers indicate it all worked?
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Haha, touché sir.
Logic says they must of worked. But by what degree. States in America who didn't lockdown, apparently some were lower, some higher; and those that were higher were still similar. But I haven't the numbers to confirm that.
I do have Swedens though 
Sweden was often touted as being the most open of our neighbours and they did much better than we did based on data.
Our CFR is 2.64% (Eng+Wales) and Sweden is 1.34%
In Sweden, chance of death from covid below age 50 is 0.018% (0.03% for under 45's here).
Plus we now have 10 million on NHS waiting lists apparently.....which is why I guess Excess Death figures over the next few years are going to be much harder to extrapolate any meaning from. In 2020 they could be used and say yes, covid has killed 0.13% of the population based on Excess Deaths. But with the NHS in trouble now (another reason I don't get the lack of out patient treatment while we waiting for vaccines to arrive) the excess death figures going forward won't be as useful probably.
NHS beds have halved since 1980, but population has gone up 25%
That can't have helped either.
EDIT: Also, there is no "credit" given to people who have had covid. They surely must have the best protection going forward, but seem completely left out of Tony Blairs etc calls for vaccinated to be given back their freedoms. |
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| Kawasaki Jimbo |
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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| Posted: 23:44 - 12 Jul 2021 Post subject: |
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So you obviously think it’s all been a waste of time. What do you think it was all about?
 The scientists over-estimated the danger
The politicians over-reacted
It was a ploy by the money-men to hit the economic status quo because they’d somehow benefit.
It was a ploy by the politicians to bring the NHS to its knees and usher in the private sector.
Something else? |
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| chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 01:14 - 13 Jul 2021 Post subject: |
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| Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: |
The scientists over-estimated the danger
The politicians over-reacted |
Both are strongly incentivised to do these things.
____________________
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Pigeon
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Posted: 01:48 - 13 Jul 2021  Post subject: |
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| Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | So you obviously think it’s all been a waste of time. What do you think it was all about? |
I don't think its been a waste of time. I was watching the videos coming out of China December 2019 and into January, asking myself "why would people fall down dead in the street just from flu, why were trucks going round gassing streets with guys in Hazmats just for flu".
---actually I'm not sure people randomly filming two guys walking down the street and one apparently dying isn't suspect, but at the time I took it at face value --
I was fairly early posting on the Coronovirus thread and quoting the data out of China, something like CFR could be between 3 and 7% (Chinas reporting of figures fluctuated a few times) and what if half the world caught the bug, something on those lines.
Folk responded that was a ridiculous what if, and this was just the flu.
Well, 15 months on, the truth (based on trusting the data we have) seems to be somewhere in the middle. Its bad, but circa 6x worse than regular flu. _Only_ 0.051% of the world died.
Of course that is a lot of people (4 million....although we dont know how many died of or with) and friends / family affected. But lockdowns are not free of issues.
In the same time frame, 140 million babies have been born.
I said those early things because that was the data at the time.
Once it hit Italy, they published their data essentially a month ahead of us, so we've know since June 2020 that below 50 years old, risk is circa 0.035%. That 85% of deaths are the over 70's and very likely to have significant comorbidities, but even then, their risk was circa 2.5%
We had this June 2020. The isolation, the measures needed to target those at risk; the over 70's. The care homes (should have been obvious since China really).
I had no idea that potential early treatments were available until a few months ago. But various doctors (not all them Kelloggs packet) have clearly been jumping up and down for a long time and treating people with great success off the back of chloroquin being identified as a treatment against SARS in 2005. And Ivermectin after Australia did a lab pertri dish test in April 2020.
WHO was giving statements in July 2020 basically saying don't use either, even though there was very little risk in doing so and several studies said otherwise as well as lots of evidence from doctors treating patients.
Papers came out at a similar time on the role of Vitamin D, that taking supplements of Vit D, C, B1, Zinc could reduce severe outcomes circa 50% (best with help of Zinc Ionophore)
So by July 2020, we knew largely who was at risk. And there were some possible early treatments and what the costs and risk profiles were. Should we not have focused on those people and made sure they had access to supplements as well as medication (after all, there were no guarantees the vaccines would work and we couldn't just keep printing billions in new debt ---something like 80% of all the dollars in the world have been created in the last 12 months ---, destroying businesses or creating years of backlog in NHS).
By October 2020 we had more data lockdown states vs open in terms of overall change in mortality (that its perhaps not different enough to warrant the extra problems it creates).
So it seems by October we had enough data to do something different that winter, potentially save lives and reduce the negative impacts of lockdowns.
I don't think the censorship of doctors and other professional scientists is a good thing. It should raise eyebrows how connected Big Pharma is to the FDA, the CDC, the WHO, governments, universities and media outlets who have (post Trump) agreed to actively censor their platforms.
When you have the co-inventor of mRNA technology being deplatformed by a department of people with zero expertise, for talking about scientific data, something isn't right.
And its not just him, there seems to be plenty of examples of people with credible backgrounds being deplatformed or defunded or threatened with license revocation, the very actions of which adds suspicion whether its appropriate or not.
In addition we have been drilled that vaccine immunity is better than natural immunity. I don't mean 70 year olds should wait to get infected, but anyone under 45 it seems like vaccination is likely a waste and potentially riskier.
Variants are outfoxing vaccines to some degree already, but folk with natural immunity dont seem to be getting it twice and possibly wont for their lifetime......unless they get vaccinated (again we dont know what the implications are).
EDIT
Forgot on the Big Pharma / FDA side. Possibly another biggest issue which lead to a completely one sided process. The conditional wording in the Emergency Use Authorisation.
"Under an EUA, FDA may allow the use of unapproved medical products, or unapproved uses of approved medical products in an emergency to diagnose, treat, or prevent serious or
life-threatening diseases or conditions when certain statutory criteria have been met, including that there are no adequate, approved, and available alternatives."
This massively incentivised Big Pharma + investors to not only ignore alternatives to new treatments, but to potentially actively go after shutting them down.
It was a clause with understandable good intentions, but might have lead to undesirable results.
If that clause was not included. And some sort of compensation package had meant that off-patent drugs (once proven) would have paid more than they otherwise would.
Then perhaps some of the risk created by handing the solution to companies and then incentivising them to go one way, might have been mitigated. |
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| MCN |
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MCN
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| MCN |
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MCN
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Posted: 05:04 - 13 Jul 2021  Post subject: |
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| Pigeon wrote: | | Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | So you obviously think it’s all been a waste of time. What do you think it was all about? |
I don't think its been a waste of time. I was watching the videos coming out of China December 2019 and into January, asking myself "why would people fall down dead in the street just from flu, why were trucks going round gassing streets with guys in Hazmats just for flu".
---actually I'm not sure people randomly filming two guys walking down the street and one apparently dying isn't suspect, but at the time I took it at face value --
I was fairly early posting on the Coronovirus thread and quoting the data out of China, something like CFR could be between 3 and 7% (Chinas reporting of figures fluctuated a few times) and what if half the world caught the bug, something on those lines.
Folk responded that was a ridiculous what if, and this was just the flu.
Well, 15 months on, the truth (based on trusting the data we have) seems to be somewhere in the middle. Its bad, but circa 6x worse than regular flu. _Only_ 0.051% of the world died.
Of course that is a lot of people (4 million....although we dont know how many died of or with) and friends / family affected. But lockdowns are not free of issues.
In the same time frame, 140 million babies have been born.
I said those early things because that was the data at the time.
Once it hit Italy, they published their data essentially a month ahead of us, so we've know since June 2020 that below 50 years old, risk is circa 0.035%. That 85% of deaths are the over 70's and very likely to have significant comorbidities, but even then, their risk was circa 2.5%
We had this June 2020. The isolation, the measures needed to target those at risk; the over 70's. The care homes (should have been obvious since China really).
I had no idea that potential early treatments were available until a few months ago. But various doctors (not all them Kelloggs packet) have clearly been jumping up and down for a long time and treating people with great success off the back of chloroquin being identified as a treatment against SARS in 2005. And Ivermectin after Australia did a lab pertri dish test in April 2020.
WHO was giving statements in July 2020 basically saying don't use either, even though there was very little risk in doing so and several studies said otherwise as well as lots of evidence from doctors treating patients.
Papers came out at a similar time on the role of Vitamin D, that taking supplements of Vit D, C, B1, Zinc could reduce severe outcomes circa 50% (best with help of Zinc Ionophore)
So by July 2020, we knew largely who was at risk. And there were some possible early treatments and what the costs and risk profiles were. Should we not have focused on those people and made sure they had access to supplements as well as medication (after all, there were no guarantees the vaccines would work and we couldn't just keep printing billions in new debt ---something like 80% of all the dollars in the world have been created in the last 12 months ---, destroying businesses or creating years of backlog in NHS).
By October 2020 we had more data lockdown states vs open in terms of overall change in mortality (that its perhaps not different enough to warrant the extra problems it creates).
So it seems by October we had enough data to do something different that winter, potentially save lives and reduce the negative impacts of lockdowns.
I don't think the censorship of doctors and other professional scientists is a good thing. It should raise eyebrows how connected Big Pharma is to the FDA, the CDC, the WHO, governments, universities and media outlets who have (post Trump) agreed to actively censor their platforms.
When you have the co-inventor of mRNA technology being deplatformed by a department of people with zero expertise, for talking about scientific data, something isn't right.
And its not just him, there seems to be plenty of examples of people with credible backgrounds being deplatformed or defunded or threatened with license revocation, the very actions of which adds suspicion whether its appropriate or not.
In addition we have been drilled that vaccine immunity is better than natural immunity. I don't mean 70 year olds should wait to get infected, but anyone under 45 it seems like vaccination is likely a waste and potentially riskier.
Variants are outfoxing vaccines to some degree already, but folk with natural immunity dont seem to be getting it twice and possibly wont for their lifetime......unless they get vaccinated (again we dont know what the implications are).
EDIT
Forgot on the Big Pharma / FDA side. Possibly another biggest issue which lead to a completely one sided process. The conditional wording in the Emergency Use Authorisation.
"Under an EUA, FDA may allow the use of unapproved medical products, or unapproved uses of approved medical products in an emergency to diagnose, treat, or prevent serious or
life-threatening diseases or conditions when certain statutory criteria have been met, including that there are no adequate, approved, and available alternatives."
This massively incentivised Big Pharma + investors to not only ignore alternatives to new treatments, but to potentially actively go after shutting them down.
It was a clause with understandable good intentions, but might have lead to undesirable results.
If that clause was not included. And some sort of compensation package had meant that off-patent drugs (once proven) would have paid more than they otherwise would.
Then perhaps some of the risk created by handing the solution to companies and then incentivising them to go one way, might have been mitigated. |
Pigeon, do you think that you contracted Teferitus?
____________________
Disclaimer: The comments above may be predicted text and not necessarily the opinion of MCN. |
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| Kawasaki Jimbo |
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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| Posted: 08:52 - 13 Jul 2021 Post subject: |
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Lifetime prescriptions of vitamins and gastrointestinal parasite treatments would have been cheaper.
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| Fat Angry Scotsman |
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Fat Angry Scotsman
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UncleFester
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 10:12 - 15 Jul 2021 Post subject: |
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Any loosening of restrictions will see cases rise, and therefore deaths and serious illness. The point being they'll hopefully be on a much smaller scale now that 2/3 of adults have been vaccinated. Either we accept that we will never be out of these restrictions, or we get on with things. If the former, we should be doing it for flu too. Flu has never been eradicated, and every year between 20k and 60k people die of it. It is highly unlikely that Covid can ever be eradicated. Plus it's good for the planet to lock everybody up, and there is a substantial decrease in road accidents too. Everybody wins.
Where can I get me some BCF socks?
____________________
Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
THERE'S MILLIONS OF CHICKENSTRIPS OUT THERE! |
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Islander
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 11:45 - 15 Jul 2021 Post subject: |
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Would that the same bin as all the twisted BCF knickers? 
____________________
Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
THERE'S MILLIONS OF CHICKENSTRIPS OUT THERE! |
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Islander
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| Easy-X |
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Easy-X
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| Posted: 12:36 - 24 Jul 2021 Post subject: |
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Nightclubs...
Clubbing and Covid passports: 'Protect vulnerable people' or 'against civil liberties'?
This is a great example of where the BBC tries to show how relevant and unbiased they are - take a contentious issue and show both sides of the argument. Except there isn't any contention here, neither clubbers or club owners are in favour of any new restrictions. A fact that is buried near the bottom of the article.
It's a tactic the BBC seem to use a lot when that day's Hymn Sheet is totally bonkers.
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Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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| to v or not to v |
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to v or not to v
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| Posted: 19:05 - 24 Jul 2021 Post subject: |
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MPs agree the vaccine passport will not apply to them, just the little people and the young-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV29JgskkwY
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its old and fat, but its a damned good ride. the bikes not bad either. |
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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hellkat
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| Posted: 21:18 - 24 Jul 2021 Post subject: |
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hellkat
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Posted: 21:46 - 24 Jul 2021  Post subject: |
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JB, I just can't buy into your conspiracy theory about Stinkers being the type to build dynasties of sockpuppetry.
The man has too much common sense.
I've known him online (and off, memorably at a party in  ?Yorkshire? ) - longer than almost everyone else I've known online (with the exception of the former editor of The Horse Back Street Choppers who I have actually STILL not met) ... and certainly longer than anyone I have known on BCF, even Clanger. I recall Stinkwheel under a different name on ratbike.org a very VERY long time ago.
He's just not the multiple sockpuppet type. He doesn't have the need for directionless vitriol or insecure childishness.
Not that he needs any sort of defence from any of us, being a proper man's man - but still ... I think you're barking up a wrong tree there, sweetie.
Now, I know we're all prone to the odd extra account here and there 
But I think Stinkers has more than enough on his plate with real life, than to be bothered with a lot of pretend carryings-on, unlike some of the rest of the people here, whoever the fuck they are
I mean ... how many of us are there to entertain?
Not that many these days ... why any sane person would bother with more than a couple of "extra" accounts is beyond me.
You would do better to look elsewhere babe, if you're trying to work out who are the Gerry Andersons of the forum, producing vaguely entertaining but somewhat wooden and predictable puppets.
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Not nearly as interesting in real life.
Last edited by hellkat on 22:19 - 24 Jul 2021; edited 1 time in total |
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| stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel
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| Posted: 21:52 - 24 Jul 2021 Post subject: |
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| hellkat wrote: | JB, I just can't buy into your conspiracy theory about Stinkers being the type to build dynasties of sockpuppetry.
The man has too much common sense.
I've known him online (and off, memorably at a party in ?Yorkshire? ) - longer than almost everyone else I've known online (with the exception of the former editor of The Horse Back Street Choppers who I have actually STILL not met) ... and certainly longer than anyone I have known on BCF, even Clanger. I recall Stinkwheel under a different name on ratbike.org a very VERY long time ago.
He's just not the multiple sockpuppet type. He doesn't have the need for directionless vitriol or insecure childishness.
Not that he needs any sort of defence from any of us, being a proper man's man - but still ... I think you're barking up a wrong tree there, sweetie.
Now, I know we're all prone to the odd extra account here and there
But I think Stinkers has more than enough on his plate with real life, than to be bothered with a lot of pretend carryings-on, unlike some of the rest of the people here, whoever the fuck they are
I mean ... how many of us are there to entertain?
Not that many these days ... why any sane person would bother with more than a couple of "extra" accounts is beyond me.
You would do better than to look elsewhere babe, if you're trying to work out who are the Gerry Andersons of the forum, producing vaguely entertaining but somewhat wooden and predictable puppets. |
Awww. It's been a long time. Life sure gets in the way eh?
I still meet up with the ratbike guys a couple of times a year. Gone off the rally scene on the whole, it just got very samey. You wont even have met the lovely Mrs stinkwheel (or maybe you did at one of the R&S doos at the MFN? ) but I'll be sure to introduce you if we cross paths.
____________________
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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MCN
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 2 years, 268 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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