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Do you use full or part-synthetic oil?

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Simon13245
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Joined: 19 Jun 2021
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PostPosted: 19:22 - 13 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
I, however, paid for the full hour.

Comparing a car engine to a bike engine, even if 4T, is stupid simply because a bike tends to have a clutch in an oil bath and a car tends to have a dry clutch.

Your whole argument was flawed from the start.


Yes I agree, it was flawed that's why I wanted to clarify. Shouldn't speak up about this topic before doing some solid research.

ThatDippyTwat wrote:
Simon13245 wrote:
I understand that you are mentally a second-grader, but just like I said previously it was just a discussion about oil. Didn't come here to pick fights with people like you Wink

Ah. An American. Full of Autism as well given the Teffers type wall 'o text.

I give it a month before the flounce.


Well, that's a miss, but whatever makes you sleep at night Very Happy

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
ThatDippyTwat wrote:

I give it a month before the flounce.


I consider that a challenge. I'm going for achieving it by the end of the day.


Challenge accepted. I can give you my Revolut ID so that you can pay me my prize in case you lose Smile
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MCN
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PostPosted: 20:51 - 13 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
arry wrote:
Fizzer Thou wrote:

Oil is cheap as against an engine rebuild,so I tend to change the oil every 1000 miles.


It's always an interesting argument because you can extend it out or reign it in.

By using the same argument I could say why not every 500 miles, then?

Also possible to question why it isn't every 2000 miles instead?

I watched this behaviour grow on car forums years ago when the likes of Opie Oils started infiltrating them and peddling very expensive ester race oils. The most almighty oil threads always ended with here, buy this 60 quid tub of magic potion and make sure you drain it out and take it down to the tip in less than 3000 miles time and we can start all over again.

The club set up an oil analysis service - send off a new and a used sample and see what's going on. Hardly anybody used it they just buried their head into the oil seller's lap, but those that did found that 15,000 miles and two years service were perfectly plausible on a well running engine that isn't throwing raw fuel down its bores with crap mapping.


Agree.

More frequent servicing than needed also introduces risk of error in assembly causing early failure.

We run big diesel beasties on the same oil for 3000hrs plus. (3 months) OEM say change oil at 1000hrs.
We only change filters and sample every month.
Saves millions. Basic fifteendubyaforty oil.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 23:37 - 13 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
The tl;dr is tolerances and max rpm.

If you have a highly strung race bike it's more than likely gonna want fully synthetic. Pure mineral oil is a bit "lumpy" at the microscopic level whereas full synth is more break it down to the minimum components and build it back into motor oil - more precise.

Just RTFM and go with that, no need to overthink it.
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weasley
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PostPosted: 10:36 - 14 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
Pure mineral oil is a bit "lumpy" at the microscopic level whereas full synth is more break it down to the minimum components and build it back into motor oil - more precise.


This is a simplistic description which I’ve seen before - it has a basis in truth but is not really relevant. Yes, mineral oil is a mixture of molecules of different shapes and sizes whereas synthetic oil is largely uniform, and I have seen it said that this impacts lubricity by comparing a bucket of marbles of various sizes with a bucket with all the same size.

However, at a molecular level the interactions are not mechanical, they are chemical and besides, there are no tolerances that even get close to molecular sizes so the point is moot. Furthermore, even a “fully-synthetic” engine oil contains various additives of widely differing molecular types and sizes.

A synthetic oil, with its uniform molecules, is more predictable and configurable than a mineral oil and does not contain any molecules with different oxidation or surface active characteristics. However a consequence of mineral oils’ mixed up molecules is that it solubilises additives and certain sludge-type molecules better. And the larger molecules in mineral oil can crystallise as waxes at lower temperatures, affecting flow rate - in these circumstances they can be described as “lumpy” but it is a macro effect that is not about tolerance but more about bulk flow.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 11:17 - 14 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
weasley wrote:
However a consequence of mineral oils’ mixed up molecules is that it solubilises additives and certain sludge-type molecules better.


Aha! It makes sense now why mineral oil might be shipped in brand new engines (the stuff that gets dumped out after the first few hundred miles.)

<addendum> So would I be right in saying that - additives not withstanding - fully synth is a slightly better lubricant but semi-synthetic is a slightly better absorbent? Oil needs to do both, to a certain extent.
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weasley
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PostPosted: 20:48 - 14 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Easy-X wrote:
<addendum> So would I be right in saying that - additives not withstanding - fully synth is a slightly better lubricant but semi-synthetic is a slightly better absorbent? Oil needs to do both, to a certain extent.


There is a school of thought that the mostly linear molecules of a synthetic base oil could possibly line up under shear stress and possibly improve lubricity, but as I said you have to account for the longer chain polymers and the polar detergents and the branched antioxidants and so on. A lot of the performance comes from what you put into the base oils, which will differ between base oils meaning a direct comparison is not easy. For example you can sometimes get away with less additive in a synthetic oil because the base oil is inherently more stable and doesn’t need ‘shoring up’.
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Pigeon
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PostPosted: 02:13 - 16 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
OIL THREAD!!!! Mr. Green

Balls, missed most of it.

arry wrote:

There's a guy on here, or there was, that works in the industry and did a good job of explaining the benefits of fully synthetic over semi.


That would be Weasley; legend, might have a man crush Wub

Simon13245 wrote:

You don't put car oil into a motorbike

Must. not. get triggered. Resist.


JASO test is (as Arry said) largely based on friction standards, which does not automatically exclude (or include) car oils
https://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV1105.pdf

Many of the accepted standards for testing are diesel/car engine oils.
https://i.imgur.com/rT46QTA.jpg

eg

https://www.oilspecifications.org/acea.php

"ACEA A1/B1 Category is removed with the ACEA 2016 Oil Sequences. From ACEA 2012: Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use at extended drain intervals in gasoline engines and car & light van diesel engines specifically designed to be capable of using low friction low viscosity oils with a high temperature / high shear rate viscosity of 2.6 mPa*s for xW/20 and 2.9 to 3.5 mPa.s for all other viscosity grades. These oils are unsuitable for use in some engines. Consult owner manual or handbook if in doubt.

ACEA A3/B3 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil intended for use in Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & Diesel Engines and/or for extended drain intervals where specified by the engine manufacturer, and/or for year-round use of Low Viscosity Oils, and/or for severe operating conditions as defined by the Engine Manufacturer.

ACEA A3/B4 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil intended for use in Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines, but also suitable for applications described under A3/B3.

ACEA A5/B5 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil intended for use at extended Drain Intervals in Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & Diesel Engines designed to be capable of using Low Viscosity Oils with HTHS Viscosity of 2.9 to 3.5 mPa*s. These Oils are unsuitable for use in certain Engines - consult vehicle-OEM’s owner’s manual/handbook in case of doubt

ACEA C2 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Mid SAPS-Level, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable of using Low Viscosity Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.9 mPa*s.

ACEA C3 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Mid SAPS-Level, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable of using Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPa*s.

ACEA C4 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Low SAPS-Level, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable of using Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPa*s.".


It doesn't mean motorbike engine oils are a rip-off / not worth it. But doesn't mean car oils are inherently worse either.

I've had clutch slip off a 70bhp bike with Castrol Racing fully-synth 10w-40. That was "fixed" (hidden for another 12 months) from using a car 10w-40 largely because it had higher Viscosity and Viscosity Index.
I've done 10k miles with car oil on a 182bhp bike that would happily lift the front at 90mph. Zero clutch slip up in motion or off the standing 1/4.

One anecdotal story doesn't necessarily mean shit of course.

Not saying all bike oil is a ripoff, or all car oil is better. Don't know enough about it and the additive pack on each oil isn't always known to public.

But there is info in the standards, info from people doing Virgin Oil Analysis (VOA) and Used Oil Analysis (UOA) you can start to build a picture. How much of that is based in reality or fiction...... its a punt. But it can at least be a semi informed punt.



The one guy (thirdgenlxi) who jumps out from memory was the dude who ran 300k miles on his CBR600 using primarily Shell Rotella T6, a "5W-40 synthetic heavy duty engine oil"

Even accounting for American's being limp right wristed, thats decent miles.
Can't find his proper thread on it, but various posts. Again, could be marketing BS, but didn't jump out as such.
Again, two stories don't mean anything.


Weasley wrote:
In truth very few OEMs demand "synthetic" or "semi-synthetic" or whatever - they usually ask for a viscosity grade


Just as a side, this reminds me, 7 years ago I emailed 4-6 of the largest motor oil producers in Europe / USA asking about the additive packs and suitable applications. Hoping maybe I got a different response from Europe to USA where the companies matched.
Was completely stonewalled in their uninformative generic PR responses. Hit by corporate BS folk who had never seen oil before unless it was drizzled on their garlic bread.
But Fuchs Silkolene were different, incredible. They put me on to their chemist who seemed happy to chat through the formulae / application of their engine oils. Genuinely by far the most helpful reaction I got from any oil company.

Weasley wrote:

I use a full-synthetic oil in mine because to get a 10W-50 with the performance needed that's what it takes


The $1m question. What is the 10w50 that you use and why?
Smile
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weasley
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PostPosted: 11:58 - 16 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pigeon wrote:
OIL THREAD!!!! Mr. Green

Balls, missed most of it.

arry wrote:

There's a guy on here, or there was, that works in the industry and did a good job of explaining the benefits of fully synthetic over semi.


That would be Weasley; legend, might have a man crush Wub

Oh you..... Embarassed

Pigeon wrote:
Simon13245 wrote:

You don't put car oil into a motorbike

Must. not. get triggered. Resist.

[Lots of good JASO/JAMA/JALOS, API, ACEA guff...]

It doesn't mean motorbike engine oils are a rip-off / not worth it. But doesn't mean car oils are inherently worse either.

I've had clutch slip off a 70bhp bike with Castrol Racing fully-synth 10w-40. That was "fixed" (hidden for another 12 months) from using a car 10w-40 largely because it had higher Viscosity and Viscosity Index.
I've done 10k miles with car oil on a 182bhp bike that would happily lift the front at 90mph. Zero clutch slip up in motion or off the standing 1/4.

One anecdotal story doesn't necessarily mean shit of course.

Not saying all bike oil is a ripoff, or all car oil is better. Don't know enough about it and the additive pack on each oil isn't always known to public.

[....snip....]

The one guy (thirdgenlxi) who jumps out from memory was the dude who ran 300k miles on his CBR600 using primarily Shell Rotella T6, a "5W-40 synthetic heavy duty engine oil"

Even accounting for American's being limp right wristed, thats decent miles.

Weasley wrote:
In truth very few OEMs demand "synthetic" or "semi-synthetic" or whatever - they usually ask for a viscosity grade


Just as a side, this reminds me, 7 years ago I emailed 4-6 of the largest motor oil producers in Europe / USA asking about the additive packs and suitable applications. Hoping maybe I got a different response from Europe to USA where the companies matched.
Was completely stonewalled in their uninformative generic PR responses. Hit by corporate BS folk who had never seen oil before unless it was drizzled on their garlic bread....

Well in essence you're getting an inside line from me, but presented as my personal POV rather than on behalf of a major oil supplier.

The car vs bike oil thing just goes on and on. Bike oil is developed for bikes, which have gearboxes and clutches to lubricate (as well as the engine) hence needing careful control over the friction. Car oils may incidentally have frictional properties that don't mess up the clutch but this is largely a serendipitous accident, but one which many people happily exploit with no issues.

The Americans love to use Rotella in pretty much anything - old car? "Rotella", modern bike? "Rotella", lawn mower? "Rotella". They probably also use it in commercial trucks as well. Wink

Pigeon wrote:

Weasley wrote:

I use a full-synthetic oil in mine because to get a 10W-50 with the performance needed that's what it takes

The $1m question. What is the 10w50 that you use and why?
Smile


What's in my bike at the moment is Motorex because that's what KTM use and I CBA to take my own oil for the service last time it got done (and the Motorex stuff appears to be decent enough). Given time to get my shit together I'd use Castrol Power1 Racing 4T 10W-50.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 10:24 - 17 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Muricans also swear by: Sea Foam, Dawn (dish soap) Soaking siezed mechanisms in Diesel to free/fix them, Southern Fried Chicken, Gumbo, Blue-Grass Cuntry Moozak, Pick-Up trucks, Budweiser beer, Guns, Hunting big game, deer/bears/cougar cats, making America bitter.
Laughing
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 10:39 - 17 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:
Muricans also swear by: Sea Foam, Dawn (dish soap) Soaking siezed mechanisms in Diesel to free/fix them, Southern Fried Chicken, Gumbo, Blue-Grass Cuntry Moozak, Pick-Up trucks, Budweiser beer, Guns, Hunting big game, deer/bears/cougar cats, making America bitter.
Laughing


Yeah but you can turn right on a red light. Pretty sure that’s their only contribution to society though. Laughing
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jimster
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PostPosted: 16:11 - 20 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm reviving this thread with a simple question (since I am a simple man)

My bike needs 10w-40 oil and Halfords have a special offer of 5l car oil for £15 at the moment so I bought it. I note its graded API SL whereas my bike asks for API SG.

This page: says SL is suitable for "all pre-2004 engines":

https://www.api.org/oil-and-natural-gas-overview/fuels-and-refining/engine-oil/~/media/Files/Oil-and-Natural-Gas/Engine%20Oil/MOTOR_OIL_GUIDE_2010_120210.ashx

Is it right? Or am I going to have seroius problems putting this in my engine (I hope not since it's a faff to get back to Halfords) Smile
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arry
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PostPosted: 16:17 - 20 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
What bike is it, does it require JASO MA1/2 oils and what's the JASO markings on the oil you've bought?
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jimster
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PostPosted: 16:29 - 20 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
arry wrote:
What bike is it, does it require JASO MA1/2 oils and what's the JASO markings on the oil you've bought?


It's a Yamaha Diversion 900 from 1997. The Halfords manual recommends only API SE, SF or SG (the obsolete 90's oil grades).

The Halfords oil markings are ACEA A3/B3 and API SL CF, it's this one:

https://www.halfords.com/motoring/engine-oils-and-fluids/engine-oil/halfords-10w40-part-synthetic-oil-3---5-litres-285302.html

Having read up on it, it's probably slightly better to use the exact spec but newer specs are generally backwards compatible and it's the correct viscosity, so I would assume it'll be OK, but I also know very little Smile
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weasley
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PostPosted: 07:41 - 21 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
For that bike it’ll almost certainly be fine. The oil you have is not aimed at fuel economy and is of an old-fashioned profile so won’t employ any friction modifiers likely to mess up your clutch.
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jimster
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PostPosted: 10:06 - 21 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
weasley wrote:
For that bike it’ll almost certainly be fine. The oil you have is not aimed at fuel economy and is of an old-fashioned profile so
won’t employ any friction modifiers likely to mess up your clutch.


Thanks Weasley, that's what I thought! The Haynes manual has various warnings about using oil with specific additivies, but I felt fairly sure that cheapo Halfords stuff would be much too budget for that kind of nonsense Laughing
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blurredman
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PostPosted: 09:04 - 24 Aug 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
Try it.. If the clutch slips, drain it immediately (to save the clutch) and filter the oil through some coffee filters, and put it in another vehicle of yours (if you have a pre-variable valve car?) when that needs it.
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jimster
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PostPosted: 02:29 - 01 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote
blurredman wrote:
Try it.. If the clutch slips, drain it immediately (to save the clutch) and filter the oil through some coffee filters, and put it in another vehicle of yours (if you have a pre-variable valve car?) when that needs it.


Thanks blurredman. I drive a more modern car which would probably have the engine explode and the wheels fall off if I put this into it, so I'll probably just dispose of it if the clutch does slip!
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