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An interesting 'alliance' and France will be Pissed.

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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 00:10 - 16 Sep 2021    Post subject: An interesting 'alliance' and France will be Pissed. Reply with quote

UK, US and Australia launch landmark security pact.

and

France, a Nato ally, which had signed a deal to build a fleet of diesel electric submarines for the Australian Navy. That deal is now dead.

Infact I expect it will push the EU further down the 'EU army' route.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58564837
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Ste
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PostPosted: 02:44 - 16 Sep 2021    Post subject: Re: An interesting 'alliance' and France will be Pissed. Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Infact I expect it will push the EU further down the 'EU army' route.

Ah yes...

"The European Union must “step up to the next level” and send soldiers to the world’s conflict zones, Ursula von der Leyen said in her most forthright call for military integration to date.

The European Commission president, who announced a defence summit with French president Emmanuel Macron next year, reignited the debate over a future EU army in her annual State of the Union speech on Wednesday.

She urged the 27 member states to use long-dormant powers to put EU boots on the ground and called for the creation of a “Defence Union” in the European parliament in Strasbourg.

“There will be missions where NATO or the United Nations will not be present but where Europe should be,” Mrs von der Leyen said in a speech in which she also claimed victory for the EU in the coronavirus vaccination race. "

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/09/15/ursula-von-der-leyen-demands-eu-military-integration-boots-ground/
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 03:13 - 16 Sep 2021    Post subject: Re: An interesting 'alliance' and France will be Pissed. Reply with quote

Ste wrote:


"The European Union must “step up to the next level” and send soldiers to the world’s conflict zones, Ursula von der Leyen said in her most forthright call for military integration to date.

“There will be missions where NATO or the United Nations will not be present but where Europe should be,” Mrs von der Leyen said


I'd like to know her thinking behind these two parts of her statement in particular. It all seems a bit vague. I can't think of anywhere the EU would have interests where neither NATO or the UN would be. That doesn't leave many places in the world out, especially the UN bit! Can anyone else think of somewhere where those two organisations wouldn't be, but the EU should be? Is she talking about the EU going to places as an aggressor?! It doesn't sound like she's talking about a defence strategy.

Or is this just another inept woman, raised to a position way beyond her capability, trying to sound tough but spewing nonsense? Laughing

And btw, hi to the other bcf insomniacs Laughing
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 08:11 - 16 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

That would be rogue states of the European Empire. Currently they’d love to turn the army on Hungary and bring it into line. There’s also the ‘Africa-EU Partnership’ which you don’t hear much about, but if the Africans get above themselves and don’t adopt “EU values” they’ll need roughing-up a bit too.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 10:15 - 16 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best bit of that press conference was Biden welcoming his closest allies: Boris and the guy from down under. He really did forget Scott's name Doh!

Also should be some jobs for the UK in making the reactors it looks like Wink
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A100man
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PostPosted: 10:18 - 16 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

..I'm guessing by 'EU army' they mean France who at least spends close to the 2% of GDP that NATO expects, Germany 1%..
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 11:33 - 16 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

A100man wrote:
..I'm guessing by 'EU army' they mean France who at least spends close to the 2% of GDP that NATO expects, Germany 1%..


If they do it then it would be a peacekeeping force I would guess. They say that protecting Ireland's interests is a top priority, well they are a neutral country so is Sweden, so that limits the army to UN peacekeeping and not much else.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 12:44 - 16 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surely all that is post Afghanistan where the EU couldn't operate without Americas (and UK's) help as they had bugger all forces in there.

When they moaned about America unilaterally leaving it didn't wash well when the EU had done fuck all to help itself.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 18:30 - 16 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In a troubled part of West Africa, Europe is fielding a military force intended to show it can handle its own security and reduce its reliance on the U.S.

The coalition of European countries, led by France, is assembling based on a calculation that helping each other overseas will cement security and defense back in Europe.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/european-army-plans-face-battlefield-reality-in-africa-11600858800
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 19:22 - 16 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the new AUKUS alliance against China has left them feeling left out.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 19:38 - 16 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Perhaps the new AUKUS alliance against China has left them feeling left out.


Oh I'm certain it has. France is really really pissed, calling the deal a 'Stab in the back' and “This unilateral, sudden and unforeseeable decision very much recalls what Mr Trump would do,” Laughing

Once in a while the bear has a warm fuzzy feeling about things, and that article has given me a very very warm fuzzy feeling. I suppose the downside is le Frogs donating all the inflatables earmarked for those submarines to the cross channel golden ticket competitors 22 mile paddle. Wink

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/16/stab-in-the-back-french-fury-australia-scraps-submarine-deal
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 19:43 - 16 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diesel electric vs nuclear. It's like they were all set to buy a push bike off the French and someone came along and offered them a hayabusa instead. What you gonna do?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 19:45 - 16 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
Perhaps the new AUKUS alliance against China has left them feeling left out.


Oh I'm certain it has. France is really really pissed, calling the deal a 'Stab in the back' and “This unilateral, sudden and unforeseeable decision very much recalls what Mr Trump would do,” Laughing


Much like the Afghanistan withdrawal fiasco, courtesy of Mr. Biden. I have to say, I'm not overly confident about this alliance anyway, since the US is crumbling from within. I feel we're still waiting to see how that all pans out, what kind of country the US is going to be in the future.
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thx1138
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PostPosted: 14:28 - 19 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

well of course France can't be in it, or it would spell FUKUS
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Johnnythefox
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PostPosted: 15:10 - 19 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/19/making-waves-in-the-pacific-how-boris-johnsons-global-britain-went-rogue

Making waves in the Pacific: how Boris Johnson’s Global Britain went rogue

Defence pact with Australia and the US increases chance of confrontation with China and spurs nuclear proliferation



and here's the Guardian slating Boris and Morrison but not a single word of criticism for that nice Mr Biden, he's not Trump you see.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 20:05 - 19 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Johnnythefox wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/19/making-waves-in-the-pacific-how-boris-johnsons-global-britain-went-rogue

Making waves in the Pacific: how Boris Johnson’s Global Britain went rogue

Defence pact with Australia and the US increases chance of confrontation with China and spurs nuclear proliferation



and here's the Guardian slating Boris and Morrison but not a single word of criticism for that nice Mr Biden, he's not Trump you see.


The Chinese are building a massive navy and constructing artificial islands as a means to claim sovereignty over new ocean territories. It would get worse if we just ignored that.

The French were reneging on the quoted cost, the delivery date and the degree to which construction would be Australian. Also, the Australian military really wanted nuclear-powered submarines but nuclear was politically dodgy in 2016, so they planned to be able to convert later (powered, not armed). Since then China has applied sanctions on Australian goods, partly due to dispute over the origin of Covid, so an effective defence (diesel subs in the second quarter of the 21st Century? Get real!) was easier to sell.

Trump who? Laughing
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 20:51 - 19 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

The CCP increases the chances of confrontation with China. I'd say they're the no.1 likely cause of confrontation with China.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 22:38 - 19 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a good article. Mr. Green

"Imagine, for a moment, that a major new defensive alliance centred on the crucial Asia-Pacific region had just been formed without British involvement, but featuring France instead.

Now imagine the reaction of our broadcast media if a joint press conference were held between Joe Biden, Emmanuel Macron and Australian premier Scott Morrison, launching 'Afrus' (Australia-France-United States).

Such a turn of events would surely be greeted as just the latest in a series of catastrophes attributed to Brexit. Media correspondents would flock to explain that every piece of diplomatic architecture protecting UK interests had been smashed. Twitter would swarm with blue-tick accounts pouring opprobrium on Boris Johnson and congratulating themselves on their foresight.

And to be honest, it would be hard to argue a convincing case to the contrary - being publicly sidelined by three of your most important allies, each based on a different continent, is a serious blow. In global diplomacy terms, it's the equivalent of bitchy Gretchen's immortal line from high school rom-com Mean Girls - “you can’t sit with us!".

So now let’s take a merciful step back into the real world, where this week saw the launch of Aukus (Australia-UK-US). Instead, it was France who lost a defence mega-contract and got NFI’d (Not Flipping Invited). Logic tells us that the story here must therefore be all about a first order crisis for France encompassing its identity, relevance and prestige across the free world, right?

Wrong. The BBC's top-line take talked of the UK and US suffering a “global backlash” towards their new undertaking. The entirety of the BBC argument seems to hinge on China finding the new alliance an unwelcome challenge - which is kind of its main point – and on France fuming about being out in the cold.

Even the headline of today’s follow-up report on the BBC News website implies the story is a crisis for Britain rather than for France - “Aukus: Truss defends security deal amid criticism” - though it does at least accurately report the new British Foreign Secretary’s words in the Sunday Telegraph today.

When France withdrew its ambassadors to Australia and America in protest, while leaving its ambassador to the UK in place, other media outlets soon found an alternative anti-British spin. An Elysee Palace briefing claiming this was because the UK was too insignificant a country to waste ire on went viral. “When the cooking in a restaurant is not first class, you sack the chef, not the guy who washes the dishes,” one French government source was quoted as saying.

Throughout the Brexit negotiations many UK broadcasters had a tendency to lap up and magnify negative stories about Britain emanating from EU sources. It seems old habits die hard. Yet a more rational reading of events is that Britain has done rather well to be at the heart of the new defensive alliance while also maintaining full diplomatic relations with a humiliated but still important neighbour.

And what about the idea, near-universally parroted by broadcast media correspondents, that the advent of Democrat President Biden was bound to lead to closer ties between the US and EU, while marginalising post-Brexit Britain?

In fact, here we are in 2021 hosting the G7 and COP26, for good or ill, still a permanent member of the UN security council, at the heart of Nato, a key member of the Five Eyes intelligence-sharing club and now part of a new triumvirate spearheading western resistance to the spread of Chinese Communist influence too.

Far from the decision to opt for national independence impeding Britain on the world stage, White House press secretary Jen Psaki implied that France being a member of the EU may have been a factor in its exclusion, telling reporters: “There are a range of partnerships that include the French and some partnerships that don’t, and they have partnerships with other countries that don’t include us.”

Despite its humiliation and its extended tantrum in response, when the dust settles France will remain the EU’s pre-eminent military power. But that is a measure of how low the EU countries have sunk in terms of international realpolitik. Germany, for instance, finds itself contemplating the fact that effectively contracting-out defence matters to its traditional ally in the EU engine room has left it way out of the loop.

Anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that the most pressing debate to come out of the Aukus controversy should be about whether the EU countries are ever going to be able to deliver a diplomatic punch equivalent to their (still-considerable) economic weight.

Our broadcast newsrooms may still push the idea of Little Britain. But in fact it is Little Europe where the real crisis lies."

Laughing

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/09/19/bbc-may-cry-little-britain-little-europe-real-crisis-lies/

Telegraph has a paywall but it's easy to get around, all you need to do is block javascript for the site. If you're using Chrome then you do that like this:

https://i.imgur.com/zcKr1Ul.png
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 23:28 - 19 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Utterly necessary French underground nuclear test that they'd been planning all along in 3, 2,1....
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 11:25 - 20 Sep 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you look at it from the Ozzie side apparently the French were fucking them about. No mention of NZ and Canada though. Given the existing 5 eyes alliance I wouldn't be surprised if this pact gets extended.
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