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Feasty
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PostPosted: 09:02 - 25 Nov 2021    Post subject: Car side mirrors Reply with quote

So after watching Top Gear recently with their caravan expedition and electric cars (ridiculous setup) - I noticed the Audi had cameras for side mirrors, and screens each side of the dash.
Then this morning on the motorway I had a new car in front of me and noticed it had these mirror screens too, and it sat there and sat there and took ages to get out of the way - nothing in the middle lane to stop it moving over.
Now most cars will reasonably quickly see the main beam and 2 LED spots on the front of my bike and move over when they get chance, partly perhaps due to the bright reflection in their mirrors. But with these screens, as you know from watching TV/monitors, no matter how bright the lights, they don't really 'dazzle' you as they would in real life.

Does that mean they are less likely to notice bikers? Things in their peripheral vision could be missed coz it's now a screen instead of an actual view.
I've not driven a car with these screen mirrors, so not sure how good they are - anyone know what they're like?
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grr666
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PostPosted: 10:58 - 25 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know about screens inside the car but the car I have just bought has blind spot warnings both visual and audible
when someone is either hovering around in that awkward spot or making a pass on either side. First I get a little orange logo
light up on the mirror itself with an additional visual alert on the HUD and if I put a signal on or start moving across when
these are active I get an "Are you sure? There's somebody there" beep. It works very well and isn't triggered by cars I pass
just vehicles closing on me or sitting in that spot. The tech on these cars is amazing these days. I was in the co-op the other day
and a found a feature I never knew I had. I was about to reverse out of a parking space, there was a van coming past in my path.
I'd seen him and was waiting for him to pass but with reverse gear selected and rear facing camera on, as he was about
3-4 parking bays away from mine and not in shot on the screen a new beep started with some hazard triangles flashing on
the screen to warn me there was traffic approaching. In this instance it was unnecessary as I had seen the van already, but
backing out when your view is obscured by something like a fence or hedge or a large parked vehicle I can see the use of
this system. I expect the Audi knew you were there but was just hogging the outside lane because it was an Audi and
that's what they do. They're fitting side cameras on lorries more and more now instead of mirrors so they must be reasonably
effective.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 21:35 - 25 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another pointless 'improvement' for the sake of it like electric handbrakes.

In lorries, maybe but how will you choose which picture you want on your screen if you have half a dozen cameras?
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 22:35 - 25 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

grr666 wrote:
on the HUD

I had to google that Shifty
I thought it was something like what I call "the dash" only more digital.
So yeah. I do like a learning experience Laughing
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hellkat
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PostPosted: 22:36 - 25 Nov 2021    Post subject: Re: Car side mirrors Reply with quote

Feasty wrote:
Top Gear ..... (ridiculous setup)

It wouldn't be Top Gear without some sort of ridiculous setup Wub
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weasley
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PostPosted: 07:44 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two further issues with screens rather than mirrors:

- you have to shift focus to where the screen is to read it; with a mirror your focus distance is the distance the thing is away from the car. This means a driver constantly having to look far up the road then close at the screen which increases fatigue and takes time

- a screen takes away all sense of distance and perspective
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blurredman
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PostPosted: 08:23 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed although this isn't mirror related, it is a bit technologically.


The case where you have to navigate through stupid menus on the 'infotainment' system just to turn on and off basic things? No touch response. You have to look at what you're doing, and it can take a stupidly long time to cycle through the menus.



In the dark in any 10+ year old car, you can easily turn the knobs to turn up the heat, without even looking!
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 08:34 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

weasley wrote:
Two further issues with screens rather than mirrors:

- you have to shift focus to where the screen is to read it; with a mirror your focus distance is the distance the thing is away from the car. This means a driver constantly having to look far up the road then close at the screen which increases fatigue and takes time

- a screen takes away all sense of distance and perspective


The focus thing is an interesting and valid point - hadn't considered that.

On the flipside, in theory with a screen there is the capability for a programme to analyse the image and identify objects and highlight them? Surely the tech much be there for that as an object that's growing/stable is going to be easy enough for an algorithm to differentiate from moving/retreating scenery?
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 09:06 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no reason they couldn't do both, with a camera behind one-way glass. You can have all your electronic buggeration but also a normal mirror.

Lack of a tactile interface on a lot of modern tech is one of my major bugbears. Forces you to look at the interface rather than the thing you're trying to do with it. They even have it with the new scissor-lift table I have for lifting big heavy dogs up and down. The old one had two buttons I could reach over/round to and press even if I couldn't see them, the new one has a flat plastic touch plate.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 09:40 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
There's no reason they couldn't do both, with a camera behind one-way glass. You can have all your electronic buggeration but also a normal mirror.

Lack of a tactile interface on a lot of modern tech is one of my major bugbears. Forces you to look at the interface rather than the thing you're trying to do with it. They even have it with the new scissor-lift table I have for lifting big heavy dogs up and down. The old one had two buttons I could reach over/round to and press even if I couldn't see them, the new one has a flat plastic touch plate.


For some reason I'm picturing a fork lift dropping a sheep onto a bike lift Laughing
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 13:40 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:

For some reason I'm picturing a fork lift dropping a sheep onto a bike lift Laughing


You wouldn't be all that far out. I've got my eye on the sheep operating table if we ever decide to get a new one. It would make a cracking bike lift.
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c_dug
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PostPosted: 14:29 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

My biggest bug bear with cameras is that they're one-way which means when filtering (so about 15 miles a day for me) I can't see the driver in their mirror.

This applies particularly with lorries in central London of which there are a rapidly growing number with cameras.

I reckon once a month or more I must make meaningful communication (a nod, a wave, a thumbs up) with lorry drivers whilst walking speed filtering past artics.

My solution would be a folding mirror/camera set up, fold them in above 50mph where wind makes some difference, and have a camera in the end of the mirror that now points backwards in the right direction. Fold them out in town where mirrors are better.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 15:37 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aerodynamic drag of rear-view mirrors is a non-thing as far as I'm concerned.. F1 cars have mirrors.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 15:56 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Aerodynamic drag of rear-view mirrors is a non-thing as far as I'm concerned.. F1 cars have mirrors.


Yes they do have mirrors but the mirrors are designed usually (depending on the regulations at the time) to give downforce.

There isn't really anywhere to put a couple of screens on a F1 car outboard of the cock pit and the ability to see whats behind you is vital as it's impossible to look behind by turning your head.

Have a look at the mirrors on a M5, or LFE for examples of making them small to reduce drag.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 19:47 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Aerodynamic drag of rear-view mirrors is a non-thing as far as I'm concerned.. F1 cars have mirrors.


Not true, mirror drag is HUGE, turbulence and noise from them is immense. One of the huge problems electric car manufacturers have to solve is the wind noise that is not being drowned out by an engine. That's why the Nissan Leaf has a magic mirror design, and I'm fairly sure why most manufacturers will go to cameras for their EVs.

They have mirrors in F1 but I think their size and shape is in the regs. If it wasn't Ross Brawn or Christian Horner would have made them into some sort of downforce inducing cheat device by now.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 20:07 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:


They have mirrors in F1 but I think their size and shape is in the regs. If it wasn't Ross Brawn or Christian Horner would have made them into some sort of downforce inducing cheat device by now.


https://www.formula1.com/content/dam/fom-website/sutton/2018/Spain/Thursday/dcd1810my305.jpg.transform/9col/image.jpg


https://maxf1.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Red-Bull-RB14-Ferrari-like-mirrors-Belgian-GP-F1-2018-2-Photo-AMuS.jpg?x78659
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 20:26 - 26 Nov 2021    Post subject: Reply with quote

Side mirrors are just there to be clipped when filtering, they serve no purpose for the average commuter driver.
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