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Bhud
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PostPosted: 15:57 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

This sort of stuff makes us look very stupid.

It's suggested that because the govt's policy on illegal migration is an utter shambles and the Royal Navy is out there doing something it isn't designed to do, this means the Royal Navy is "woke".

The proof of this is that they recruit all sorts nowadays, even non-white people, it's alleged. They lower the fitness and other recruitment standards to let in non-white people, it's alleged.

Good thing they aren't being called for in times of war, because they're too weak and namby-pamby, it's alleged.

Operational effectiveness is being hampered by the wokeness of the Royal Navy. This is serious because the Royal Navy has to be able to look Johnny Foreigner in the eye and shoot him, it's alleged.

The last time the Royal Navy was effective was when Gen X was in charge (think they still are?), it's alleged.

And our basis for saying all this is what? That we ride bikes?

The Royal Navy's purpose is mostly just to protect shipping routes. Its deployment in times of war is not independent because it fits into an overall strategic sea power involving many allies. A ship is a ship and no matter what, if it's been torpedoed, Navy personnel have to follow orders. They might repair the hull or they might not, but they are not the priority in that situation. It's not mad rush to the dinghies. If the boat goes down they go down. That's the basic deal, and for that reason alone, I don't think we can accuse them of being woke weaklings.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:03 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

The British armed forces have always recruited non-white people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurkha
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 16:08 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't surprise me at all if some of the people they're being made to pick up at sea end up enlisting at some point.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:11 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bhud wrote:
Wouldn't surprise me at all if some of the people they're being made to pick up at sea end up enlisting at some point.


Wouldn't be surprised.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_Beharry
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 16:24 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:


They are fanatical about diversity and are so eager to prove how woke they are. Take a look at their PR work. People are free to approve or disapprove, but that it is happening is factual.


It IS a worry I think, but I am not sure that your claim that "the whole military is full of woke" is an accurate description. I'd like to see you produce the evidence to this effect, because that is a strong claim. Perhaps you are right, but show me. And who is introducing these policies if so? Is it the military themselves or civil servants in Whitehall for e.g.?


Quote:
The opposition to the use of lethal force, an obsession with diversity, and the dislike of the country are the hallmarks of woke.


The obsession with diversity I grant you is of concern for the reason I gave, i.e. not getting the best people for the job in the name of quotas. But opposition to the use of force? Within the military? For what, exactly? And dislike of country within the military? Again, what have you seen to lead you to believe this? I'm open to convincing, but you have not tried, merely made bold statements.

Quote:
Accepting less fit people is also not woke.


Why would the military lower fitness requirements?

Quote:
I'm not blaming them for following orders, I'm addressing the implicit assertion that the military (particular the navy and air force) are somehow "more tougher line" than border farce. I can't see the majority of them being reluctant to welcome in the economic migrants.


Once again, they will do the job the politicians order them to do. And it is the politicians who are perhaps hoping that using the military will give an impression of a tougher line. I think everyone who actually considers it will quickly see it is just for show, and without actual effective measures will achieve little. Folks may sometimes say they wish we'd just blast the boats out of the water out of exasperation, but do you really think anyone actually expects us to?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 16:25 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Bhud wrote:
Wouldn't surprise me at all if some of the people they're being made to pick up at sea end up enlisting at some point.


Wouldn't be surprised.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_Beharry


Was Johnson Beharry an ILLEGAL immigrant?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:32 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


Was Johnson Beharry an ILLEGAL immigrant?


No idea. Just saying immigrants fight for this country.

Do you consider the whole Joanna Lumley campaign to allow Gurkas to be given the right to settle in the UK is woke because she isn't Nepalese?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 16:38 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:


Was Johnson Beharry an ILLEGAL immigrant?


No idea. Just saying immigrants fight for this country.


The problem is ILLEGAL immigration.

Quote:
Do you consider the whole Joanna Lumley campaign to allow Gurkas to be given the right to settle in the UK is woke because she isn't Nepalese?


The problem is ILLEGAL immigration. The Gurkhas are an irrelevance to what I am talking about. And what do you think I think of allowing Gurkhas the right to settle in the UK? Try to be sensible old chap.

Who are these people crossing the channel? Do you know them? Will you personally vouch for them all?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:41 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:

The problem is ILLEGAL immigration.



I take it they all claim asylum when they are picked up? It's not illegal at that point. Semantics, I know, but if they have a justifiable claim to asylum they should be allowed in.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 16:42 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:

It IS a worry I think, but I am not sure that your claim that "the whole military is full of woke" is an accurate description. I'd like to see you produce the evidence to this effect, because that is a strong claim. Perhaps you are right, but show me. And who is introducing these policies if so? Is it the military themselves or civil servants in Whitehall for e.g.?


It is system wide. As I have already said, it's far less common in infantry and similar roles. In the RN, RAF and officers wokeness is far more common. The civil service is even more woke than the military.

https://www.army.mod.uk/people/work-well/diversity-and-inclusion/

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/907901/20180806-MOD_DI_Plan_A4_v14_Final-U.pdf

https://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/ministry-of-defence-to-incorporate-diversity-and-inclusion-training-co-developed-by-dr-rachael-kelly

chickenstrip wrote:
The obsession with diversity I grant you is of concern for the reason I gave, i.e. not getting the best people for the job in the name of quotas. But opposition to the use of force? Within the military? For what, exactly? And dislike of country within the military? Again, what have you seen to lead you to believe this? I'm open to convincing, but you have not tried, merely made bold statements.


What leads me to believe that woke people oppose the use of force? LOL, you're just being silly now.

chickenstrip wrote:

Once again, they will do the job the politicians order them to do. And it is the politicians who are perhaps hoping that using the military will give an impression of a tougher line. I think everyone who actually considers it will quickly see it is just for show, and without actual effective measures will achieve little. Folks may sometimes say they wish we'd just blast the boats out of the water out of exasperation, but do you really think anyone actually expects us to?


Exactly, they are not going to stop the illegal immigration, even though its illegal. It is a show, and I hope they get shown up for the lie that it is. They should be more honest and just legalise uncontrolled immigration rather than pretending they oppose it.

Again, you can agree or disagree but people are kidding themselves if they think they can do anything about the wokeness. The conservatives lost their battle years ago Laughing
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:50 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erm....

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/cross-channel-migrant-issue.301235/
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:55 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the naval equivelent to ARRSE doesn't read as particularly woke.

https://www.navy-net.co.uk/community/forums/current-affairs.14/
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 16:59 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

MPD hates blacks, Val hates whites Laughing

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
And the naval equivelent to ARRSE doesn't read as particularly woke.

https://www.navy-net.co.uk/community/forums/current-affairs.14/


Full of retired navy people. I doubt people who served on Type-21's were very woke.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 17:03 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
MPD hates blacks, Val hates whites Laughing

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
And the naval equivelent to ARRSE doesn't read as particularly woke.

https://www.navy-net.co.uk/community/forums/current-affairs.14/


Full of retired navy people. I doubt people who served on Type-21's were very woke.


Citation?
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 17:20 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:


Citation?


arrse.co.uk

https://aeroaffaires.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/375649-13-889_275-hr-fa8762-original-1610404495-scaled.jpg
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 17:22 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:


Citation?


arrse.co.uk



Arrse is army, not Navy.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:30 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:

The problem is ILLEGAL immigration.



I take it they all claim asylum when they are picked up? It's not illegal at that point. Semantics, I know, but if they have a justifiable claim to asylum they should be allowed in.


I take it they do. What if they didn't?

What do you mean by "allowed in"? To go wherever they please before they have undergone any kind of assessment or vetting?

How are they justifying their asylum claims? Should we just take their word for it? Is the onus on them to do so? Will you personally vouch for all the channel migrants?

Nobby, do you believe immigration should be controlled at all? If so, what sort of controls? Are we achieving it in this situation? Is what we are seeing happening in any way a problem?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:33 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:


What leads me to believe that woke people oppose the use of force? LOL, you're just being silly now.


Do you think that members of our armed services will refuse to fight if sent into combat situations? Or refuse to go in the first place?

I am not ignoring your links btw. I have read (most!) of them all. I am suspicious of the people introducing it all, and what is driving them. I never saw any of the problems they are claiming to be addressing in my mere 8 years of service (and the world was very much less woke back then!). I don't doubt there would have been incidences of racism or whatever, but in my experience, if you were part of the team and pulled your weight, you were "one of us".
The sense of humour could be a bit, er, sharp shall we say (and you can't expect civvies to understand it unless maybe they work in very dangerous jobs), but it always went in all directions. And it WILL change as the culture around it changes, but it should be a slow and natural process generally speaking.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 17:52 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is getting daft. The Navy does what it is told. It doesn't exercise discretion based upon the political and ethical leanings of its personnel.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 18:12 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggs wrote:
This is getting daft.


It most certainly is.
It occurs to me that society is trying too hard to push for change, at too fast a rate. Change itself is inevitable, but judging by many of the things that are said by many on this forum and elsewhere, it is going too fast for us to handle in many areas. This is where conflict arises, because nobody has the time to get a handle on things. Question

And to my mind there are undoubtedly bad actors among all this. But that doesn't mean I think all those who clamour for change are bad. But we need time to think things through, and not charge blindly ahead.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 19:08 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

There’s an element of it in forces leadership training.

https://order-order.com/2021/12/17/guardian-columnist-lectures-army-on-reducing-unconscious-bias/

https://order-order.com/2021/11/09/new-army-to-host-extinction-rebellion-for-talk-on-leadership/
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 19:27 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:


Without even reading those links, we already know that unconscious bias training is BS. And a Guardian columnist? Nice to see we're placing our faith in experts Laughing
And what in the hell kind of leadership training can XR offer?! To anyone, never mind the military? Laughing*

Still, not sure the source is trustworthy - a common complaint. I don't even know that such a thing as an unbiased and diligent source exists anywhere on the internet these days Sad

*Got it - "Glue yourselves to these buildings lads, and that means we've taken and hold the ground!" Laughing
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 19:38 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Still, not sure the source is trustworthy,

Laughing
How dare you sir! Oh, you meant … never mind.

https://twitter.com/Army_Leadership

I hope they also spend some time studying how previous leaders fought the fuzzy-wuzzies, the Frogs and Jerry.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 19:43 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
Still, not sure the source is trustworthy,

Laughing
How dare you sir! Oh, you meant … never mind.

https://twitter.com/Army_Leadership

I hope they also spend some time studying how previous leaders fought the fuzzy-wuzzies, the Frogs and Jerry.


So you come back with Twitter Laughing
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 19:50 - 26 Jan 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unconscious bias isn't a new thing. Its been standard training for at least 20 years for anyone with leadership responsibilities.
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